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"I didn't want this car" - Akio Toyoda, about the 4GS

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Old 09-01-11, 09:44 AM   #46
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I never understood why toyota, or all other manufacturers, bother making hybrids out of these high priced, 6 cyl - 8 cyl cars. Theoretically, makes no sense to spend twice as much for only 20-30 percent more fuel efficiency.

and also, it's as if toyota went out of their way to make a really bad looking pure hybrid such as the prius. Why don't these manufacturers focus on their top two small, light entry level cars to make as hybrids. Toyota will be in trouble once a car maker actually makes a affordable pure hybrid that's actually really good looking.

and why ford doesn't focus on their fiesta / focus for their pure hybrid's is beyond me, instead they have a fusion and escape as their hybrid models.

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This is all because of the stupid hybrids. They dedicate way too many resources to development of hybrids that there are no resources left for development of exciting cars.

Now, I have no problem with performance oriented hybrids such as GS-h and LS-h, but HS-h and CT-h are unbelievable waste and don't belong in Lexus line up by a mile.

I am very impressed with what I have seen of the 4GS so far, but I have a bad feeling they are going to release it and abandon it much like they did with 3GS.
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Quite a harsh statement about hybrids. Didn't you enjoy your driving experience @ the Taste of Lexus in Elmont some years back behind the wheel of a GS450H? Was it not exciting enough for you?
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Old 09-01-11, 09:52 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemareen View Post
I never understood why toyota, or all other manufacturers, bother making hybrids out of these high priced, 6 cyl - 8 cyl cars. Theoretically, makes no sense to spend twice as much for only 20-30 percent more fuel efficiency.

and also, it's as if toyota went out of their way to make a really bad looking pure hybrid such as the prius. Why don't these manufacturers focus on their top two small, light entry level cars to make as hybrids. Toyota will be in trouble once a car maker actually makes a affordable pure hybrid that's actually really good looking.

and why ford doesn't focus on their fiesta / focus for their pure hybrid's is beyond me, instead they have a fusion and escape as their hybrid models.
twice as much? gs450h goes for 80k around you?

you just need to understand the point of hybrid on lexus (gs, ls, etc...). it's not as much about the gas mileage. it's about POWER. you get v8 power (with v6 gas mileage) for example in the gsh. the idea conceptually is nothing different from superchargers or turbos
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Old 09-01-11, 09:59 AM   #48
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ok make that 3 or 4x as much...but at 80k, there's a lotta v8's with same performance at half that price...even more in used car market.



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twice as much? gs450h goes for 80k around you?

you just need to understand the point of hybrid on lexus (gs, ls, etc...). it's not as much about the gas mileage. it's about POWER. you get v8 power (with v6 gas mileage) for example in the gsh. the idea conceptually is nothing different from superchargers or turbos
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Old 09-01-11, 10:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
Quite a harsh statement about hybrids. Didn't you enjoy your driving experience @ the Taste of Lexus in Elmont some years back behind the wheel of a GS450H? Was it not exciting enough for you?
Did you read what I posted?

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Originally Posted by Och View Post
This is all because of the stupid hybrids. They dedicate way too many resources to development of hybrids that there are no resources left for development of exciting cars.

Now, I have no problem with performance oriented hybrids such as GS-h and LS-h, but HS-h and CT-h are unbelievable waste and don't belong in Lexus line up by a mile.

I am very impressed with what I have seen of the 4GS so far, but I have a bad feeling they are going to release it and abandon it much like they did with 3GS.
Yes, GS-h is great, but once again, HS-h, CT-h are a waste of resources that should've been allocated to bigger and better things.

Welcome back btw, haven't seen you post in a while.
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Old 09-01-11, 10:16 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by rominl View Post
twice as much? gs450h goes for 80k around you?

you just need to understand the point of hybrid on lexus (gs, ls, etc...). it's not as much about the gas mileage. it's about POWER. you get v8 power (with v6 gas mileage) for example in the gsh. the idea conceptually is nothing different from superchargers or turbos
The problem with that however, is that it costs a lot more to develop vs slapping on a turbo/supercharger, and then space is compromised, so in the end they sell like three of them, and never even break even on the investment, and therefore cut back on other things to keep R&D costs down.

So while the GS-h might be awesome, it costs way too much to build, and then it never gets appreciated nearly as much as turbo charged sedans the competition is selling.
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Old 09-01-11, 10:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by rominl View Post
twice as much? gs450h goes for 80k around you?

you just need to understand the point of hybrid on lexus (gs, ls, etc...). it's not as much about the gas mileage. it's about POWER. you get v8 power (with v6 gas mileage) for example in the gsh. the idea conceptually is nothing different from superchargers or turbos
Power is always a plus. How that power is delivered imo is what gets most driving enthusiasts excited. Granted, the GS-H is a powerful car. From my experience behind the wheel of the current GS-H, the CVT transmission takes away the sensation of power delivery that a conventional tranny delivers. I want to feel the torque, the tranny downshifting & upshifting. My question to you guys. Can Lexus put a conventional tranny, say the 8 speed, into the upcoming GS-H to give the sensation of a turbo/supercharged car putting that power to the pavement?
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Old 09-01-11, 11:16 AM   #52
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The problem with that however, is that it costs a lot more to develop vs slapping on a turbo/supercharger, and then space is compromised, so in the end they sell like three of them, and never even break even on the investment, and therefore cut back on other things to keep R&D costs down.

So while the GS-h might be awesome, it costs way too much to build, and then it never gets appreciated nearly as much as turbo charged sedans the competition is selling.
so they should be lazy and do whatever the competition does and not push any limits? :-).

CTh is quickly becoming Lexus's best seller, just like 1 series and A3.
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Old 09-01-11, 11:53 AM   #53
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so they should be lazy and do whatever the competition does and not push any limits? :-).


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CTh is quickly becoming Lexus's best seller, just like 1 series and A3.
And neither of those cars have anything to do with luxury, but at least the 1 series can be had with an awesome motor.
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Old 09-01-11, 12:09 PM   #54
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And neither of those cars have anything to do with luxury, but at least the 1 series can be had with an awesome motor.
if you took away sales of engines that you dont consider luxury, i bet BMW would drop a lot too... as would MB and Audi.

thats the way it works, people buy entry level 328i and 528i more than 335i, etc, etc.
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Old 09-01-11, 12:19 PM   #55
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I thought it was obvious and logical that young buyers are looking for fun to drive vehicles that are or seem environmentally sensitive. For many the CTh/1/A3 is their first step into luxury and if they like what they taste, they'll go for more.

Come on guys, simple marketing tactics to get the new customer base.
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Old 09-01-11, 12:49 PM   #56
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I agree the CVT isn't sexy, I've said it many times. It doesn't help with the sound and it isn't "traditonal". Thing is Lexus hybrids are not traditional cars and most people don't track, race or mod. Me, Stormforge, LucusB and a couple of others I am so used to it now the CVT doesn't bug me and I actually don't like driving traditional automatics that shift, feels weird to me .

Lexus has actually raced the GS 450h a few times and what is impressive is the hybrid tech never failed. I have no issues with my hybrid at all in regards to the tech. So the CVT is very strong. The CVT also debuted world firsts in the GS and LS.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Lexus hybrids will just feel more artificial compared to a traditional car. It is what it is. I understand this and moved on.

Lets not forget BMW, Audi, Benz, Porsche, Infiniit, Lincoln all now offer hybrids, most high powered ones, following what Lexus is leading with. I'm all for more options. They are not for everyone and they are not the answer to the world's problems


Can Lexus make the CVT respond quicker? Not sure since its a variable gear already...
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Old 09-01-11, 03:07 PM   #57
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lol you guys are funny. most of you didn't even read what i have said before

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Originally Posted by Och View Post
The problem with that however, is that it costs a lot more to develop vs slapping on a turbo/supercharger, and then space is compromised, so in the end they sell like three of them, and never even break even on the investment, and therefore cut back on other things to keep R&D costs down.

So while the GS-h might be awesome, it costs way too much to build, and then it never gets appreciated nearly as much as turbo charged sedans the competition is selling.
in the short run, yes. but you have to look at a much bigger picture. toyota already holds pretty much the first place in hybrid technology, and the application is so wide already across toyota and lexus lineup. so it's not right to say that a lot of r&d is spent solely on the gsh. that's not true. plus, although still an unknown, given enough time, maybe hybrid will come out to be the number 1 solution for power / fuel efficiency. we just don't know yet, but for sure toyota is buying into it.

yes, putting superchargers and turbos might seem easy, but it also depends. are the engines fundamentally strong enough to hold the pressure and boost? outside of the 2jz-gte engine, as far as i can remember, toyota/lexus hasn't built engines with FI in mind for a while. so that alone might put a lot of r&d $$ already to make one engine that's up to par with toyota's reliability standard.

again i am not saying hybrid is the answer. similarly while bmw and mb both going turbos, i am not saying that's the answer either. i only see that as two ways to achieve the same thing, and no one knows who is winning yet.

with the number of prius and camry hybrid that toyota is selling, i am pretty sure they have the funding to "play" with cars like gsh

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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
Power is always a plus. How that power is delivered imo is what gets most driving enthusiasts excited. Granted, the GS-H is a powerful car. From my experience behind the wheel of the current GS-H, the CVT transmission takes away the sensation of power delivery that a conventional tranny delivers. I want to feel the torque, the tranny downshifting & upshifting. My question to you guys. Can Lexus put a conventional tranny, say the 8 speed, into the upcoming GS-H to give the sensation of a turbo/supercharged car putting that power to the pavement?
lol if you read my older posts, i am not a fan of hybrid and cvt in cars like gsf myself at all. especially cvt, weird is the only word that i can use.

on a v8 "replacement", i guess i am ok with it. it doesn't have to be as "hard core" as the gsf kind of car. there is no way to deny the tq of the hybrid. even with the cvt (no downshift), but as soon as you smash the gas pedal, the tq that pushes you into your seat is no joke (just make sure you put it in sport mode)

i am fine if they make gsh with 8 speed, i probably prefer that myself anyway

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ok make that 3 or 4x as much...but at 80k, there's a lotta v8's with same performance at half that price...even more in used car market.
you are clearly not understanding what i was trying to say. you can get a gs450h now for what, 50k (new)? it has the v8 kind of power and performance. where can you find a lot of other v8 cars with similar performance at HALF that price?

if you simply go out and look at the pricing of gsh, its numbers and performance, then you will realize that for the price, it's providing performance of a lot of v8 while being cheaper, still.

if you remotely think hybrid are a lot more expensive than comparable cars, i am listening
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Old 09-01-11, 07:01 PM   #58
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I had no idea this thread would be going strong this long. It's causing quite a bit of debate with you guys.

I had no idea Lexus made a track version of the 3GS. That gives it another level of street cred in my book.
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Old 09-01-11, 07:15 PM   #59
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If he wanted to kill the GS what would that mean for the IS? The IS is based on the GS after all.

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I agree with jtrue28. They F'ed up With the 4GS looking like a mutt car with the front looking like a nissan maxima, the headlight of an honda accord, slap on an lexus es rear end looking. What happen to the GS trademark 4 headlight front? IMO, I think the 4GS is gonna be a flop, so sad.
I think these photos need to be posted again for reiteration:

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This is a very nice car, not amazingly exciting but it's an understated, elegant and well executed design. Do you want an E-class instead of that? An Infiniti M? An Audi A6? They're all just as boring though not all come across as elegant. I think the 4GS will do well.
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Old 09-01-11, 08:47 PM   #60
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I personally dont like the new GS it looks more like a vamped up ES so it seems to toyoda really didnt want to do a new GS, I just think it couldve looked a whole lot better, the interior is a big improvement but the rest of the car looks like a frankenstien project, the front lights look like the IS the back sorta resembles an ES, the exhaust tips from the LS
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