Kamber

Upfront disclosure: EXTREMELY LONG WINDED POST BELOW!
Choosing one car over another is always hard to give an good opinion on because of the different requirements each individual has for what they're looking to get out of a vehicle. So, as to perhaps, enable you gentlemen to provide me with the most fitting responses and opinions, I wanted to give as much detail and background information as possible!

First off, I'm new here, so hello! I've been lurking on ClubLexus for a while now, as I've been putting a good amount of consideration into buying a new Lexus for my wife in the near future.

Here's our current situation:
We're a young married couple in our 20's, with no kids and no plans to have kids for at least another 4 years or so. My current daily driver is a 2008 Toyota 4Runner SR5 that we are sharing, as she has a 2008 Honda Accord EX located back on the East Coast at her parents home (we moved to the West Coast last November due to me being in the military and PCS'ing). We plan on leaving the Accord on the East Coast, as she frequently goes back and spends time at her parent's place whenever i'm out of the state/country for training or deployment purposes. The car we are looking at buying would be used as her daily driver here on the West Coast; she will be using it to drive to and from her studio a couple times a week and general getting-around-town use for while I'm away at work. We'd also probably use it for longer trips due to the gas mileage advantage over my 4Runner, unless of course cargo capacity was needed. The 4Runner is very well maintained as I'm the original owner, and I intend on driving it for at least another 3-4 years; it'll remain my daily driver, work vehicle for transporting gear/equipment, and generally be our go-to vehicle when it comes to moving other dirtier or larger items less fit for transport in a sedan.

Earlier this year, we started shopping for a new car (and by we, I mean me, because she's just not the type to really get involved in the process of cross-shopping or comparing models/brands/generations of cars, doing research, etc. It kind of goes like this: she gives me her general considerations and preferences, and I do the leg work to find out what might be a good match and run it by her). She pretty much leaves it my hands and trusts me to make the best decision when it comes to our household's vehicle purchases and finance related stuff.

She's not very picky at all, but did state that she wanted a reasonably affordable (30-45k range, but preferably under 40k) vehicle with interior appointments/amenities and ride-characteristics that would feel rather luxurious; something she would not mind keeping and driving for the next 6-8 years. My requirements for the new vehicle are that it is as reliable as possible, more reliable/hassle-free than anything else in it's class/segment (which effectively rules out European brands), and that my wife can enjoy and be happy with it for quite some time to come. Being able to maintain excellent resale value is a big plus, but not absolutely necessary as we will likely keep the vehicle as a long-term purchase.

After spending god knows how many hours cross shopping a multitude of vehicles online and digging through various forums (we don't have a specific need or preference for a certain type of vehicle, so we were looking at anything from the compact SUV segment, to compact and mid size sedans), I've narrowed my search parameters to a Lexus sedan.

It seems to me that the 2016 ES350 has a lot to offer for the money and fits the bill extremely well as far as what we are looking for. It has a well appointed interior, is more than sufficiently optioned for us, is extremely reliable with little to no known common issues compared to other entry level luxury sedans of other brands, emphasizes ride comfort and as much reduction of NVH as possible, and gets decent gas mileage. FWD is no problem; we live in Tacoma, WA where the weather isn't extreme at any point throughout the year, so we'll probably leave A/S tires on it year round but if the need arises I have no problem buying a second set of wheels to put winter tires on (plus, we have the 4Runner for bad-weather duties). My wife and I both appreciate the way the ES350 looks, we don't mind the new grille, and neither of us could care less about it being a re-badged Camry (we see the significantly higher quality cabin + fit/finish as well as better ride compliance/NVH reduction over the Camry/Avalon worth paying a small premium for).

While I'm just ever so slightly sad about how numb, isolated, and opposite-end-of-the-spectrum it is from having sporty handling or steering feel, I know my wife won't mind that in the least. I don't think she would care much either way since she's not very particular or sensitive to ride compliance, as the ride/noise level felt in the cabin of her current Accord is mediocre at best and she doesn't mind it at all, but I do think that the comfortable/plush ride that the ES350 offers will be a nice touch that she will appreciate. I prefer a sportier ride, but it's personally not a big deal at all to me because the car is primarily for her (and I drive a bodyroll-rific body-on-frame 4Runner to begin with, haha). Plus, knowing that it's not made or purposed to deliver anything close to a sporty driving experience, I won't be expecting anything of the sort on the occasions that I'm the one behind the wheel.

If we went with an 2016 ES350, we'd be looking to purchase one with Bi-LED headlamps, possibly the luxury package depending on how good of a deal we could get it for, and that's it. While we can afford them, we personally don't feel like any of the other options available are worth the additional cost. Things like a panoramic sunroof, navigation, smart-phone interface suites, all these new-age driving aids/safety systems, etc; they are nice, and obviously if they came standard we would take them, but neither of us care enough or would make use of them enough to justify paying more for them. I'd be willing to pay no more than 11% off MSRP, but I also understand that ES350's sitting on dealership lots never come specced as bare-bones as what we are looking to get, so I'd be limited to putting in a custom order (which I'm fine and comfortable with doing). We're in no rush, and I'm more than willing to drive up to 200-250 miles to close the deal with a dealership that is going to offer us the best price on a vehicle optioned exactly how we want. Flying is also an option if the deal warrants the purchase price of a one-way plane ticket.

(This is a question better suited for the ES sub-forum, but does 11% off MSRP sound pretty damn near the best I could hope to do? More wiggle room would be awesome, but given that the ES is one of Lexus' best sellers in terms of volume, I'm not sure if I can realistically expect to do better)

So, with all that in mind (bear with me), I've been looking into possibly making the jump to a GS350 instead. Exterior dimensions are similar, with the GS having a ~1 inch longer wheel-base, ~1 inch shorter overall-length, being ~1 inch wider, and effectively the same height as the ES. Interior dimensions seem to be very similar as well, with the GS having a slightly roomier front cabin and minutely more shoulder/hip width all around while the ES has noticeably more rear leg-room. The ES has 1 cubic foot of trunk capacity over the GS. The GS gets ~2-3 MPG less combined than the ES. The reduction in trunk space, gas mileage, and rear leg room don't really mean much to us, so those negatives are not really an issue.

The GS is AWD or RWD as opposed to the ES being FWD; either GS drive-train would be a plus side for me since I loved the driving characteristics of my previous RWD E46 M3 and AWD never hurts when you live in a mild, albeit 4-season climate. I think the drive-train differences are going to be negligible in terms of how my wife will perceive them, I don't think she'll have any preference besides for the perception that AWD is safer in bad weather, though I'm personally of the opinion that even a RWD car fitted with proper winter tires will drive more confidently than an AWD car fitted with A/S tires.

I'm expecting the GS to have a sportier ride than the non-existent one of the ES. Am I correct in assuming that the GS will still deliver a much more comfortable and compliant ride compared to something like an M3 or 335i? I'm not sure if there is a significant difference in NVH characteristics between the ES and GS, but from everything I've read, I trust that the GS has a very well sorted cabin feel in general.

Now on to the big difference; price.

The MSRP on a GS as my wife and I would option it, would be 54k for an AWD GS350, 58K for an AWD GS350 F-Sport, and 57.5k for a RWD F-Sport /w Dynamic Handling/Rear Steering

(What the consensus on AWD vs RWD in specific regard to the 4GS? I'm aware of the pro's/con's of each drive-train in general, but are there any prevailing model-specific reasons that people lean one way or the other?)

Obviously the GS350 costs a lot more than the ES350, at first glance at least. I've done some preliminary browsing/research and seen multiple references to how new GS's can be had for steep discounts off MSRP, sometimes ranging from 15% all the way up to around 25%. please forgive me if 15-25% off MSRP sounds ridiculously unrealistic; I guess the real question is how steep is "steep" when it comes to these "steep discounts", and do they generally only apply to non F-Sport models, or are F-Sport models included? I tried to look for a typical "how much did you pay for your ____" type thread to dig for real-world sales figures, but couldn't find one; if anyone could point me in that direction I'd be greatly appreciative! Similarly, if anyone could comment on how much I could realistically expect to acquire a GS for under MSRP in terms of %, given that I'm willing to put in the time/work to find the right dealer and am in no rush (but would prefer to make this purchase sometime in the next 6 months or so), that'd be awesome! I'd also be willing to book a one way flight out of state to make the purchase and drive it back if a killer deal as available elsewhere and a similar deal could not be sourced locally.

From what I've read, residual values are ALSO quite low, due to the discounting of GS's when they were purchased new. Thus, I'm definitely open to looking at used and CPO GS's as well. I've been thinking lately, that a pre-owned GS may infact be the best decision of all. are there any commonly known issues/problems with the 4GS that need addressing or that I should at least be aware of when considering this model (including the current year)?

A preliminary search shows quite a few 1 owner, traded in or lease-ended 2013/2014 F-Sport and non F-Sport GS350's available with 15-40k mileage (most at ~30k mileage), middle-of-the-road optioning, going for mid to upper 30's in terms of asking price. I've never bought a used car before besides my previous M3, but that was from a friend done through a private party transaction, so it's not really a comparable experience. How much, on the optimistic end, can I expect to talk down a dealer on a CPO GS350 similar to he ones i've described? It doesn't seem like the demand is as high as for used GS's as it is for other vehicles, should I expect ample wiggle room in price negotiations?

Are there any significant differences between the pre-facelift model years of the 4GS? Obviously, the GS is freshly facelifted inside and out for 2016, but the wife and I are A-OK with the look of and would be quite happy with any model year in this generation.

Is there a good place to look up the packages offered on previous model year GS's and the contents of said packages? I understand that it varies from year to year, and this would help me with knowing what I'm looking at when browsing used pre-owned GS's.

Whew, that's it! /eye-roll, hehe

Thanks for reading through my post everyone; any opinions, recommendations, information, or advice is more than welcome!

Mike728

If you're serious about considering an ES, you should copy this post to that forum, too. The majority of responses here will obviously be pro GS.

I bought the ES over the GS for a few reasons. One, the GS requires premium, where the ES runs on regular. Two, interior room, specifically the rear seats, are much more spacious. third, the GS with the options I desired would have been over $10k more. This was back in 2013 when the discounts were pretty equal between the two.

Me personally, would never buy a used car, so that would rule out a pre-owned GS. The discounts you see on here above 15% are for remaining 2015 stock. I think you might have a hard time matching those deals on a 2016, new. Have you considered the IS? It's more in line, cost wise, with the ES, but offers the sportiness you seem to desire. It's smaller than the GS, but you don't seem too concerned with that.

Bottom line, you can't go wrong with either model. It just depends on what you value more. With the GS you get more luxury and sportiness, than the ES. The ES is a better value and has more room. Oh, and it's technically a rebadged Avalon.

Good luck!

jj14

What Mike728 said (about posting in ES forum as well)

My suggestion - take a test drive in both cars. You've already identified the major pros/cons on both cars. Both cars are very comfortable to drive. The GS is more fun to drive (If you like like more power, and better/sportier handling). Some don't care about acceleration/handling, and would prefer a very comfortable car instead - and for them, the ES may be a better choice.

ES has significantly more leg room in the back, and adding a car seat later on is not a problem.
I have the GS - and while I do have a car seat in the back, it is definitely not very comfortable for the child, I had an ES before this, so I know the difference (in handling/power and in comfort).

If you read other threads on here, the price of a used GS may make it worthwhile considering a used one. It is a Lexus, so should be pretty reliable. You could save a decent chunk of money going with a 1 year old GS - only if you are ok with a used one though.

spoogenet

The ES will be more plush and a quieter ride. I would rate the GS ride as similar to a 335i, softer than a M3.

Fuel type is already noted, and many GS drivers consider the EPA estimated mileage to be inflated.

You already noted poor resale value, for your case if you do go with a GS I would recommend used so it's not as bad.

From everything you said and the fact your wife is less picky, I would recommend checking out the Avalon. In the Limited trim you get great HID headlights, all the room and plush ride of an ES (same platform), and a nicely appointed interior. You don't get the brand recognition or higher price. Without much work, you can roll off the lot in a new Avalon Limited for about $35k + TTL if they still have the $2500 incentive.

popping

i test drove a 2013 ES, 2011 GS350 ,2013 GS350, and 2013 GS350 fsport before deciding on the F. You're still young. I felt the ES was too "old" for me. It was too bland and boring for me.

Flying3

I think I'm qualified to give you some feedback since I own both a 14 GS and an 11 ES.

I lease the GS. This is a sport sedan. I drive it exclusively in Sport+ mode and the handling is quite good for a mid-size sedan. My previous car was an ISF. The ISF was over the top rough ride and with RWD in the northeast, not all that practical. The GS will deliver excellent handling and comfort for 4 passengers. But the car is built for spirited driving.

I recently purchased a 2011 ES 350 as an extra vehicle and for my monthly long commutes from MA to NJ. The car was purchased as a CPO from the dealership and lexusdrivers reports service to the dealership religiously every 5K miles. Only this dealership that sold it to me has ever serviced it and it had one owner who clearly took care of it. It had 4 new tires installed, all new brakes, a new battery, and both interior and exterior refinishes. The CPO comes with 2 years full warranty, unlimited miles and the next four 5K service visits. It had just under 50K miles and I got it for just under $20K. The car is like new.

As you already know, the ES is more of a luxurious ride over the GS. It's a great highway driver when you just want to sit back and chill. It is the more appropriate family sedan IMO. Where the GS is a nice compromise between say the ISF and the ES. You get the finer appointments of a higher end Lexus, a comfortable, albeit more sporty ride. I have found that the key with getting a better ride on the GS is the right tire. Avoid Bridgestone Taranzas if you can.

So my advise? Get both!

As far as the Avalon, when I cross shopped against the ES, I found that once you loaded up the Avalon to similar equipment in an ES, the price difference was negligible. Then the difference becomes Lexus service vs. Toyota service. I personally get outstanding service from my Lexus dealer. Of course you pay for it, but that's the choice you need to make when comparing an ES vs. a similarly equipped Avalon.

smhgator

I recently purchased a (new but heavily discounted) 15 GS AWD F Sport after looking at both GS and ES. I decided GS as I simply enjoyed driving it more than the ES. Yes the ES has more room in the back, better fuel economy,etc but for me it was very comfortable but too boring. I went with new because with a nice discount it didn't make sense to buy CPO. I plan on keeping it until the wheels fall off.



I also have a manual e46 M3 . If you loved the e46 I think you will be happier with the GS in the end.

NickL

ES is too old for you.

I just bought a new(but with some mileage) crafted line 2015 GS-F for 25% off the MSRP. The car is not brand new but it's virtually new. The 2016 is now also heavily discounted. I'm sure I could've gotten one for at least 15% discount. But I don't like the look of the divorced DRL led and especially the Altezza looking taillights. I do like the fact that it comes with Safety Plus package and that the screen can now be used as full navigation.

I would suggest you go to the dealer and see what's left of the 2015 or test drive the 2016 GS and ES. Just be aware that luxury sport sedan like the GS has horrible resale value. The car is essentially worth half of its price in 3 years. If you don't mind a lightly used car, get a certified pre-owned and save big! I see 2013 and 2014 with less than 20K miles with original MSRP of $58-60K selling for $35K or under!

Tom450

I looked at both the ES and GS. The ES was comfortable transportation between A and B but the GS was FUN transportation between the two.

Kamber

A big thank you to everyone for all the thoughtful replies!

The reason why we didn't choose to consider the IS series is because I wouldn't be interested in the FI engine, cutting out all but the 300 and 350. At the prices at which those can be had, I'd rather make my way into a used 4GS for the same amount of money because to me the IS doesn't represent as 'proper' a middle-ground per say, as well as a CPO 4GS does. I'd rather just go all out on comfort with an ES for my wife's sake than choose the IS as a 'middle-ground' candidate due to the compromise in regards to interior room, NVH, and level of luxury. Although size isn't something that is currently very important to us, this vehicle is one that we would very much like to keep well into the years in which we plan to start having children. The reduction in rear passenger leg room on the GS vs the ES is definitely something I'll have to behold in person before I make a final judgement on, especially with JJ14's comment on the rear seat being somewhat cramped for car-seat applications.

The reason why we didn't choose to consider a well optioned Avalon is simply for the fact that it's going to cost us no less than the exact ES350 we would want. I agree whole-heartedly with Flying3 on this one.

It seems that test drives are all that's left to definitively steer my wife and I one way or the other since NVH, cabin feel, driving feel, etc. are all very subjective areas and we're just going to have to sit in/drive both models in order to really weigh out the pro's/con's of each that we are already aware of on paper.

My Wife is currently back at her parent's place in MD, and I'll be joining her in a week or so since I'm taking a few weeks of leave. I'm going to try to take a day or two next month to go test drive each model while we're on the East coast. I suspect that shortly afterwards, the hunt will be on for a new 2016 ES or used 2014/2015GS!

Additional question:
Any comments on the 8-speed dual-clutch found the RWD 4GS vs the 6-speed auto found in the AWD?
The E46 I owned was a 6MT, but being familiar with how unrefined and jerky a BMW SMG II gearbox can be, versus say, the new BMW DCT gearboxes, if there is any sort of similar disparity between the two transmissions available between the 4GS drive-trains I would highly prioritize the transmission itself over 'RWD vs AWD'.

Thanks again for all the recommendations! I'm going to be sending out a few PM's so some repliers regarding prices they paid, etc. later today, and I'll also be sure to post a similar copy of this thread in the ES sub-forum later today; great suggestion Mike728 & JJ14!

Have an excellent Memorial Day weekend, everyone!

spoogenet

I have driven both the 6 and 8 speed. I am okay with either of them. They are both smooth. The 8 hunts a little more at times but not a big deal to me.

JDR76

Either car is a great choice. While I haven't owned an ES, I've driven many. They are soft, comfortable, quiet, and quite quick. They definitely have a roomier back seat, but I have two child seats (one forward facing and one rear facing) in my GS and don't have any issues with room. You just need to be somewhat careful in what car seat you buy. There are several fairly compact choices out there.

The GS is a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed mine. FWIW, I bought my GS F Sport in December '15 from Lexus of Seattle and got a great deal.

The IS is RWD or AWD, not FWD.

Also note that the 8 speed, like the 6 speed, is not a dual clutch transmission.

Kamber

JDR76,

PM inbound in regards to your purchase and experience with Lexus of Seattle!

Also, thanks much for those corrections! For some strange reason, I really had it in my head that the IS was FWD or AWD and misunderstood (really don't know where I pulled this one out of, hehe) "direct-shift" to be Lexus' nomenclature for a DCT.

Deven

Here are some other thoughts. I bought my wife a GS300 in 2003. We had a Nissan Maxima prior. Once we moved to a warm weather climate, it allowed me the opportunity to consider RWD cars that normally I would not have considered when we used to live in the north east. I think my wife is of the same mindset as your wife, she does not really care what she drives (for the most part), and probably would not appreciate the differences. She likes the 'smooth' drive and probably would prefer the 'cushy' ride of the ES.

However with that being said, personally, I would never buy a ES. I will always associate the ES to being a rebadged Camry (and now Avalon). Sure it is a superb vehicle, but like many enthusiasts note, there is nothing enthusiastic about it. It is a very common bland reliable car.

The GS on the other hand is more in line of being a sports sedan. RWD, sportier lines, stiffer suspension, etc, etc. Even though it was my 'wife's car', I would drive it sporadically and it was fun to drive. I would be the one that usually took it in for service, and when they gave me loaners (usually an ES), even though my car would have been older (and at the end 10 years older than the loaner), the GS road 'better' and it was not even close. I am the one that would wash the car, drive it to get milk, do errands on weekends, and even take it on longer drives when we wanted to drive the car instead of the SUV.

Thus, unless she cares greatly, get the car you want. She will like the car no matter what you get. I just bought a 2015 GS450h F-sport. Again this car was for my wife as the GS 300 is now old (>160000 miles), and will needs a lot of work. Her initial commnet was the car was not as 'smooth' as the old one (and in all fairness the car is surprisingly extremely stiff as compared to prior GS's). But within days-week, she appreciates the improvements (all the new technology), and she even commented that the car handles better.

I posted a long thread in the hybrid section on what lead me to the GS450H. I keep my cars a long time (essentially till they die) and thus always buy them new, but the price differential between new and CPO sometimes is huge, and outstanding deals can be made on low mile 1 year old cars, especially when they get the CPO warrentee. Also Lexus financial was offering 0.9% finacining up to 5 years on CPO GS's recently which make it a no brainer to buy one used.

Kamber

Deven,

I think you're spot on with the logic and reasoning that led you to a GS, and subsequently, yet another one. I would definitely agree that we're in similar situations and our wives have similar dispositions in regards to car choices. Ever since I started looking into the GS, I've leaned further and further towards the mindset of "If the wife is equally as happy with either model, and the differences between the two would go largely unnoticed from her perspective, then it makes perfect sense to pick the vehicle that would put the bigger grin on my face when I occasionally steal her DD or am tasked to be the driver on longer trips". Both vehicles are indeed superb and I'm comforted by the fact that it would be hard to go wrong with either. Thanks for sharing the train-of-thought that led you to your particular purchases; I'll definitely hit up your thread in the hybrid section to garner some further insight.

I'm looking forward to going in for test drives with her in a few weeks to get a better idea of how she feels about one versus the other. I think it's obvious by now, but I'm personally leaning towards the 4GS. The fact that there is no difference in $$$ between a 2 year old, low mileage 4GS and a 2016 ES350 helps a lot too; it seems either can be had for approximately $35k before TTL.