2016 Lexus GS 200T - Thoughts?
01-24-16, 04:00 PM
#76
peter when
i say brilliant think about the following points
1) lexus took 4 years after bmw launched a 2.0 turbo and you read the articles and press to determine if they have exceeded expectations or failed that your call
2) the gs is getting 22 mpg combined like the gs 350 besides cost it make sense to get the antiquated brilliant 3.5
3) the germans are still four years ahead with their inline sixes, do you realize the n55 still gets better gas mileage than lexus 2.0 turbo. take a n55 for a drive you will never drink saki again
4) the new versions of the 6 the b58 and an upcoming model to replace the n20 will have the performance and the economy to keep them in the lead till lexus perfects the hydrogen fuel cell.
5) the reliability and cost around lexus and toyota are unbeatable. but whats happened is all those that buy a gs for 50 plus are losing 15 to 20 k trading them in 3 years. bmw is worst but you can pick up a 14 528 cpo optioned up for 37k . with the dynamic handling package it still is not a handling car like the gs, but will outperform, looks better, more comfortable with multi counter seats, and technology and i drive is 4 years ahead of the lexus cars.
6) i respect lexus and toyota. you want the best v8 buy a lexus. you want a turbo buy a bmw its quite simple. and lastly turbos aren't going away the people that drive ls's and say the gas mileage and pumping 400 dollars a month or more for high mileage people in fuel days are limited. this oil thing is old and the buyers are smarter that why lexus conceded and put turbos in the rc, is, gs, nx
they just got caught with their pants down,
just capitalism at its finest they lost
1) lexus took 4 years after bmw launched a 2.0 turbo and you read the articles and press to determine if they have exceeded expectations or failed that your call
2) the gs is getting 22 mpg combined like the gs 350 besides cost it make sense to get the antiquated brilliant 3.5
3) the germans are still four years ahead with their inline sixes, do you realize the n55 still gets better gas mileage than lexus 2.0 turbo. take a n55 for a drive you will never drink saki again
4) the new versions of the 6 the b58 and an upcoming model to replace the n20 will have the performance and the economy to keep them in the lead till lexus perfects the hydrogen fuel cell.
5) the reliability and cost around lexus and toyota are unbeatable. but whats happened is all those that buy a gs for 50 plus are losing 15 to 20 k trading them in 3 years. bmw is worst but you can pick up a 14 528 cpo optioned up for 37k . with the dynamic handling package it still is not a handling car like the gs, but will outperform, looks better, more comfortable with multi counter seats, and technology and i drive is 4 years ahead of the lexus cars.
6) i respect lexus and toyota. you want the best v8 buy a lexus. you want a turbo buy a bmw its quite simple. and lastly turbos aren't going away the people that drive ls's and say the gas mileage and pumping 400 dollars a month or more for high mileage people in fuel days are limited. this oil thing is old and the buyers are smarter that why lexus conceded and put turbos in the rc, is, gs, nx
they just got caught with their pants down,
just capitalism at its finest they lost
01-24-16, 04:04 PM
#77
should have realized lastly was not last.
when i say they lost,
i never count lexus out, i like the passion and introduction in detroit, i think they realize they need a paradigm shift or they are going to have issues. they are stepping it up and every time i see a ls400 i put myself in my 98 ls and say they can do it again they can improve, change, adapt and win. they just didnt have the management insight to develop the smaller turbo motors in the late 2000's to see the vision of what was coming, stupid management is to blame nobody else.
when i say they lost,
i never count lexus out, i like the passion and introduction in detroit, i think they realize they need a paradigm shift or they are going to have issues. they are stepping it up and every time i see a ls400 i put myself in my 98 ls and say they can do it again they can improve, change, adapt and win. they just didnt have the management insight to develop the smaller turbo motors in the late 2000's to see the vision of what was coming, stupid management is to blame nobody else.
01-24-16, 04:10 PM
#78
let me ask you this as well since were having such an insightful dialogue. the ls is now in its 9th year of production, the same body that looks ridiculous, same mpg from 2005, same great ride with suspension, same average handling. same great interior. if management was on the ball, don't you think in 2013 late year when they did the refresh they would have had a replacement that was s class competition. now in detroit they are saying 2020 for the releases of the fuel cell technology they said would be in 2017. you see a pattern here? its relevant to our discussion on the 2.0 turbo there sleeping at the wheel. there doing well with numbers based on models released but there not sweating the details like they used too. maybe the lc500 is an indication that they need to wake up and do what iran does to us, spy a little in hamburg and duselfdorf
01-24-16, 05:22 PM
#79
Lexus Fanatic
Lexus has lost? Last time I checked they were doing quite well.
You're not going to convince me, I would never buy a luxury car with a 4cyl engine. Not going to happen. Like I said, if you like it great. They sell, but the vast majority of people buy them because they're all they can afford, not because they actually want better fuel economy.
LOL, thats your opinion. I think the LS460 is a beautiful car. I think spending $50,000+ on a car with a 4cyl engine and worrying about fuel economy is ridiculous.
Since when are we talking about the LS? This is a thread about the GS200t.
Lucky you that you moved on to BMW. Now go join their forums. Plenty of people there to discuss your love of economy car powertrains with lol.
Then why are SUV sales at an all time high? Why does MB sell the S550 with a TT V8? The reason for shrinking engines isn't desire in the US, its CAFE requirements and tax situations overseas.
Affluent people are just becoming more affluent. I promise you there will be plenty of people to buy the V8 LS in the future.
Anyways, the LS as old as it is gets 30MPG HWY with that V8. In order to spent your $400 a month on fuel you'd have to drive the LS like 35k miles a year, which is very unusual. In any event, I hardly think people spending $1,000+ on lease payments are worried about the cost of fuel.
You're not going to convince me, I would never buy a luxury car with a 4cyl engine. Not going to happen. Like I said, if you like it great. They sell, but the vast majority of people buy them because they're all they can afford, not because they actually want better fuel economy.
let me ask you this as well since were having such an insightful dialogue. the ls is now in its 9th year of production, the same body that looks ridiculous
if management was on the ball, don't you think in 2013 late year when they did the refresh they would have had a replacement that was s class competition.
its relevant to our discussion on the 2.0 turbo there sleeping at the wheel
people that drive ls's and say the gas mileage and pumping 400 dollars a month or more for high mileage people in fuel days are limited. this oil thing is old
Affluent people are just becoming more affluent. I promise you there will be plenty of people to buy the V8 LS in the future.
Anyways, the LS as old as it is gets 30MPG HWY with that V8. In order to spent your $400 a month on fuel you'd have to drive the LS like 35k miles a year, which is very unusual. In any event, I hardly think people spending $1,000+ on lease payments are worried about the cost of fuel.
Last edited by SW17LS; 01-24-16 at 05:32 PM.
01-24-16, 05:32 PM
#80
another quote for so we have accurate info
In normal drive mode however it does feel like there is some turbo-lag, or delay from the transmission. It doesn’t exactly zip off the line, even if you’ve asked it to. The engine spins up revs but there is a noticeable pause before the full torque is felt. Driving in Sport or Sport Plus mode does seem to help
sorry steve, i wanted to oblige and get back to gs,
how is your ls today ?
sorry steve, i wanted to oblige and get back to gs,
how is your ls today ?
01-24-16, 07:23 PM
#81
01-24-16, 07:39 PM
#82
Land Size, Population, Congestion, Emissions, Infrastructure, Gasoline Prices & Turbos
Due to smaller land size across Europe, combined with high population densities, hence high congestion & high pollution, yet smaller land areas means easier to develop: infrastructure, public transport, tunnels and railway networks, resulting in deliberately high European taxes for much more expensive gasoline prices, the Europeans have had to develop economical turbos early on. Nothing special about this.
In the US, land is abundant, with relatively less congestion & relatively less pollution, but with nearly 7 million square miles, the infrastructure including: tunnels, railway networks, and public transport is harder to develop over such vast land area, thus gasoline is intentionally not heavily taxed, hence relatively cheap, such that the US has far more time to move into economy engines like small capacity turbos.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...und-the-world/
Unlike their European turbo counterparts, US consumers simply aren't as desperate to get into small capacity turbos.
Sure US consumers will get into small capacity turbos - with time.
We can't just pretend that the US is Europe.
They're certainly similar, but not exactly the same.
If gas was $7.50 a gallon here in the US, then things would be different.
At $7.71 a gallon, of course a Norwegian is desperate for a small capacity turbo.
Furthermore, in the next 5/10/15 years, if Elon Musk's Lion batteries proves to be a success:
1) The Lion batteries last as long as he claims it to last.
2) The Lion batteries are reasonably affordable to replace.
3) There is no major explosion on Lion recharging.
4) There is no major Lion explosion in big car accidents.
Then electric vehicles EV will really boom, causing possibly a rise in electricity prices, while gasoline prices could hold or even fall, thus extending the life of internal combustion engines.
Win-Lose vs Win-Win?
Thirty years ago, I used to think like you Ls430lover.
Back then, I used to think that Benz came first, and Beamer lost to come second, etc.
Today, I have become more sophisticated, and I realise that things aren't quite so simple, and that each design has its pros & cons, such that most models are quite good, but each in different ways, and what is good for Jack, could be a disaster for Jim.
Thus, things aren't quite that simple, and BMW don't necessarily make the best turbos at all.
It's not just about who makes the most peak power, or best economy; it's also about power delivery, and who makes the flattest torque curve, without the feeling of the turbine spooling up.
Presently, BMW is going to great lengths to patent their "electric" turbo to abolish the turbo lag etc.
For me, presently my favorite turbo is Benz's 2.0t, because Benz's 2.0t combines a flat torque curve with reasonable refinement, however on the downside, Benz's 2.0t has amongst the least horsepower output.
Lexus 2.0t has more power, while retaining the flat torque curve, but the Lexus unit is harsh.
Beamer has the most power, with reasonable smoothness, but the torque curve is peaky; I'm sensitive, so I can feel the turbine spooling up, where others wouldn't care, so they don't pay attention to such details.
I have driven a Benz E400 3.0 V6 twin turbo 0-60 in some 5 seconds flat, however I regret to say that its torque curve is peaky too, and nothing like their 2.0L four cylinder turbo.
Presently, it is very common for turbos to have peaky and boomy torque curves.
Hence manufacturers including BMW are presently going to great lengths to develop and patent "electric" turbos.
Hence, it's not that simple.
None of the models are perfect.
Each has its pros & cons.
Every car is a set of pros and cons.
They're all good and bad, but in different ways.
Horses for courses.
Each to their own.
What is great for Jack, could be a disaster for Jim.
Rather than being so naïve and simplistic in our thinking, we must learn to be more experienced and sophisticated in our way of thinking.
Not just ourselves, but we must also consider other people.
We need to be more "open-minded".
Rather than Win-Lose, we try to think along the lines of Win-Win.
There is enough room at the top for everyone.
What I do is that I highlight the pros and cons of each car, however I do not make the final decision.
I allow the buyer to make the final decision, to choose the set of pros and cons that best fits their individual needs, wants and tastes.
Hence I would stay clear from trying to make out that BM's 2.0L turbo is king, while rivals are losers.
You must understand that BMW's 2.0L turbo is only king in your eyes, and not necessarily king in the hands of other drivers.
This is why I give you the analogy of Camry V6 with stronger bottom end torque, versus GS350 V6 with more top end power.
It's not so simple.
Life is complex.
The GS isn't a genuinely better engine than the Camry.
The GS has compromised bottom end torque for top end power.
It's the same with your beloved BM 2.0L turbo which you are so "fanatical" about.
It has compromised a peaky boomy torque curve, for top end power; presently, even BMW themselves are trying to address this problem with their development and patent of electric turbos.
Thus, presently the BM 2.0L turbo is not simply as brilliant as you claim it to be.
.
Due to smaller land size across Europe, combined with high population densities, hence high congestion & high pollution, yet smaller land areas means easier to develop: infrastructure, public transport, tunnels and railway networks, resulting in deliberately high European taxes for much more expensive gasoline prices, the Europeans have had to develop economical turbos early on. Nothing special about this.
In the US, land is abundant, with relatively less congestion & relatively less pollution, but with nearly 7 million square miles, the infrastructure including: tunnels, railway networks, and public transport is harder to develop over such vast land area, thus gasoline is intentionally not heavily taxed, hence relatively cheap, such that the US has far more time to move into economy engines like small capacity turbos.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...und-the-world/
Unlike their European turbo counterparts, US consumers simply aren't as desperate to get into small capacity turbos.
Sure US consumers will get into small capacity turbos - with time.
We can't just pretend that the US is Europe.
They're certainly similar, but not exactly the same.
If gas was $7.50 a gallon here in the US, then things would be different.
At $7.71 a gallon, of course a Norwegian is desperate for a small capacity turbo.
Furthermore, in the next 5/10/15 years, if Elon Musk's Lion batteries proves to be a success:
1) The Lion batteries last as long as he claims it to last.
2) The Lion batteries are reasonably affordable to replace.
3) There is no major explosion on Lion recharging.
4) There is no major Lion explosion in big car accidents.
Then electric vehicles EV will really boom, causing possibly a rise in electricity prices, while gasoline prices could hold or even fall, thus extending the life of internal combustion engines.
Win-Lose vs Win-Win?
Thirty years ago, I used to think like you Ls430lover.
Back then, I used to think that Benz came first, and Beamer lost to come second, etc.
Today, I have become more sophisticated, and I realise that things aren't quite so simple, and that each design has its pros & cons, such that most models are quite good, but each in different ways, and what is good for Jack, could be a disaster for Jim.
Thus, things aren't quite that simple, and BMW don't necessarily make the best turbos at all.
It's not just about who makes the most peak power, or best economy; it's also about power delivery, and who makes the flattest torque curve, without the feeling of the turbine spooling up.
Presently, BMW is going to great lengths to patent their "electric" turbo to abolish the turbo lag etc.
For me, presently my favorite turbo is Benz's 2.0t, because Benz's 2.0t combines a flat torque curve with reasonable refinement, however on the downside, Benz's 2.0t has amongst the least horsepower output.
Lexus 2.0t has more power, while retaining the flat torque curve, but the Lexus unit is harsh.
Beamer has the most power, with reasonable smoothness, but the torque curve is peaky; I'm sensitive, so I can feel the turbine spooling up, where others wouldn't care, so they don't pay attention to such details.
I have driven a Benz E400 3.0 V6 twin turbo 0-60 in some 5 seconds flat, however I regret to say that its torque curve is peaky too, and nothing like their 2.0L four cylinder turbo.
Presently, it is very common for turbos to have peaky and boomy torque curves.
Hence manufacturers including BMW are presently going to great lengths to develop and patent "electric" turbos.
Hence, it's not that simple.
None of the models are perfect.
Each has its pros & cons.
Every car is a set of pros and cons.
They're all good and bad, but in different ways.
Horses for courses.
Each to their own.
What is great for Jack, could be a disaster for Jim.
Rather than being so naïve and simplistic in our thinking, we must learn to be more experienced and sophisticated in our way of thinking.
Not just ourselves, but we must also consider other people.
We need to be more "open-minded".
Rather than Win-Lose, we try to think along the lines of Win-Win.
There is enough room at the top for everyone.
What I do is that I highlight the pros and cons of each car, however I do not make the final decision.
I allow the buyer to make the final decision, to choose the set of pros and cons that best fits their individual needs, wants and tastes.
Hence I would stay clear from trying to make out that BM's 2.0L turbo is king, while rivals are losers.
You must understand that BMW's 2.0L turbo is only king in your eyes, and not necessarily king in the hands of other drivers.
This is why I give you the analogy of Camry V6 with stronger bottom end torque, versus GS350 V6 with more top end power.
It's not so simple.
Life is complex.
The GS isn't a genuinely better engine than the Camry.
The GS has compromised bottom end torque for top end power.
It's the same with your beloved BM 2.0L turbo which you are so "fanatical" about.
It has compromised a peaky boomy torque curve, for top end power; presently, even BMW themselves are trying to address this problem with their development and patent of electric turbos.
Thus, presently the BM 2.0L turbo is not simply as brilliant as you claim it to be.
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 01-25-16 at 09:31 PM.
01-24-16, 08:40 PM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by dseag2
I was wondering where Donald Trump hung out when he wasn't on Twitter.
Is your income HUUUUUUGE? J/K
Is your income HUUUUUUGE? J/K
01-25-16, 05:09 AM
#84
Seems like Lexus are not interested at all to make fast cars. But people buy fast looking cars...sales success because most buyers won't utilise available performance anyhow. However, more 'emotion' and excitement can be enhanced by noise, slightly better handling, slightly stiffer ride, etc, and branded F.
01-25-16, 08:11 AM
#85
Lexus Test Driver
Don't buy F branded vehicles now, they just came out with an LC500 using the same V8 engine as RC/GS-F. They branded it with a 500 instead of an F car, that means Toyota is breeding another monster somewhere in Japan. The LC-F is coming guys, maybe it is the rumored LFA2
These 200t cars are just for people who wants all show and no go.
These 200t cars are just for people who wants all show and no go.
Last edited by ItzFilyO; 01-25-16 at 08:14 AM.
01-25-16, 05:11 PM
#86
Lexus Test Driver
The fact that the IS250 outsells the IS350 is proof enough of that. I still don't get why they're bothering with a GS200t. I mean, you're already out of Camry and Avalon territory, why do you want an anemic, shivering 4cyl under the hood of your midsize sedan? Who is this thing for, Europe?
Anyway, I totally agree with your assertion about the LC500 not getting an extra letter designation. They put the F v8 in it so they could build it NOW. Even their Facebook admin hinted at a hotter F version eventually. I'm just shocked they took something so beautiful as a concept and managed to get it to production nearly the same, tit for tat. Infiniti couldn't do that with any of their cars including the jaw dropping Essence or even the Eau Rouge. It takes ***** to move something along "intact" from concept to showroom, and it takes someone that gets yes for every answer (I'm looking at Akio Toyoda). So, Akio said we want Lexus to be sexy and fast, and the engineers made it, but he also asserted at the LC500 debut, "this is just the beginning".
Couldn't be further off topic at this point, sorry guys, I am a known thread killer. Back to the topic, GS200t is stupid and doesn't fit into the Lexus lineup anywhere. ES200t? Ok. IS200t? Sure. NX200t, why not. But GS and LS deserve better, and I guarantee sales will prove it. The GS200t will be a dud.
Anyway, I totally agree with your assertion about the LC500 not getting an extra letter designation. They put the F v8 in it so they could build it NOW. Even their Facebook admin hinted at a hotter F version eventually. I'm just shocked they took something so beautiful as a concept and managed to get it to production nearly the same, tit for tat. Infiniti couldn't do that with any of their cars including the jaw dropping Essence or even the Eau Rouge. It takes ***** to move something along "intact" from concept to showroom, and it takes someone that gets yes for every answer (I'm looking at Akio Toyoda). So, Akio said we want Lexus to be sexy and fast, and the engineers made it, but he also asserted at the LC500 debut, "this is just the beginning".
Couldn't be further off topic at this point, sorry guys, I am a known thread killer. Back to the topic, GS200t is stupid and doesn't fit into the Lexus lineup anywhere. ES200t? Ok. IS200t? Sure. NX200t, why not. But GS and LS deserve better, and I guarantee sales will prove it. The GS200t will be a dud.
01-25-16, 05:17 PM
#87
Lexus Fanatic
The GS200t doesn't bother me, every competitor has a turbo 4 varient.
Whats it for? Really Europe. Its not going to be a big seller here I agree.
Whats it for? Really Europe. Its not going to be a big seller here I agree.
01-25-16, 05:44 PM
#89
Lexus Fanatic
Lexus only sells 20k GSs in the US a year total. They sell more GS sedans outside the US than they do here. How many of them do you think are going to be turbos? Why do you think they didn't bother making an AWD version of the 200t? They won't even stock them at dealers in snow areas.
01-25-16, 06:19 PM
#90
I never quote Jap car sales figures in Europe because:
1) They're subject to European import tariffs, while the local European cars have no tariffs.
2) Worse, Jap cars are subject to import quotas across Europe, while the local European cars have no limited quotas, and are happy to sell as many as they can.
It's like talking about European imports in Japan.
Normally, I only quote sales in the US, because the US is a "neutral" market with a "level" playing field for both European & Japanese imports.
The US is also the biggest luxury car market in the world.
.
1) They're subject to European import tariffs, while the local European cars have no tariffs.
2) Worse, Jap cars are subject to import quotas across Europe, while the local European cars have no limited quotas, and are happy to sell as many as they can.
It's like talking about European imports in Japan.
Normally, I only quote sales in the US, because the US is a "neutral" market with a "level" playing field for both European & Japanese imports.
The US is also the biggest luxury car market in the world.
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 01-25-16 at 08:37 PM.