GSthe4th

iTrader: (1)

All of this German/Japanese automotive cat fighting...comedy!

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

and in other threads, Korean and other Japanese auto manufacturers too.
True....pure comedy.

GSthe4th

iTrader: (1)

Mine's better than yours!

natnut

Turbos = volumetric efficiency

Thermodynamic efficiency (ie fuel efficiency)depends on a lot of other factors in an engine's design and isn't simplistically broken down into NA vs Turbo. You can have a thermodynamically efficient NA engine which is volumetrically in-efficient ie slow and a volumetrically efficient turbo that is themodynamically inefficient ie fast but thirsty.

Of course you can have a thermodynamically efficient turbo that is ALSO thermodynamically efficient as well as a thermodynamically inefficient NA engine.

It is a fact that turbos are volumetrically efficient compared to NA but is also a general rule that turbos tend to break down more. I guess you have to pick your compromise.

harryra

So many doubters....So little European car experience for them.

We are all basically here for one reason and that reason is because we like the 4th Gen Lexus GS350. I just got mine within the last two weeks and have enjoyed it immensely. My others cars are not getting much road time at the moment. But make no mistake that Lexus is reverse engineering company with most of its talents copied from European and American car manufacturers....I personally give them kudos for being able to do them better in most cases but often times it takes years for these ideas to flow into a Lexus.....They are very conservative in how they advance their product line.

williakz

I'm twitting you guys, but I guess that doesn't come across here.

The point I'm trying to make (and you're trying to deny) is that turbos, qua turbos, do not necessarily yield the fuel savings that consumers come to expect based on manufacturers' claims. Turbos, in my experience (I've had and have many), are EXTREMELY sensitive to how they're driven when it comes to gas mileage (NOT fuel efficiency since I don't want to get into a theoretical engineering debate on thermodynamic vs. volumetric measures of same - JEEZ!). At low boost levels (NOT low speeds, highway cruisers), turbos "revert" to their normally aspirated equivalent - USUALLY a small(er) displacement engine. So (AS AN EXAMPLE), the small displacement 2 liter Hyundai 2.0T engine sips gas during low boost driving (constant speed, RELATIVELY low RPM). But when the turbo spools up (during high throttle demand and RELATIVELY high RPM operation), the gas mileage (NOT efficiency, pace Singapore) craters.

That's the point, the whole point, and nothing but the point, so help me EPA. Turbos are NOT a godsend to deliver us from CAFE requirements. To the extent we have the freedom to "punch it," we can turn our small (OR LARGE) displacement turbos from gas sipping greenies into ravenous monsters bent on destroying the earth. I leave it to others to determine whether "normal" driving demands tend to make turbos behave in one mode more than another. I only reported that many Hyundai 2.0T drivers were shocked and dismayed that their "normal" driving brought out more of the beast than of the lamb. My experience with this same Hyundai engine, as well as the BMW N54 and N55 engines confirms this dual nature associated with turbocharged engines. Been that way for a long time, be that way forever.

sambb

How can the engine be criticized - doesn't it far exceed any ability to drive the car safely and well on roads (at least in the USA). Certainly, there is little need to drive above 80 mph, and virtually no need to turn corners at track speeds. I used to own a BMW M, and it also exceeded the roads. What am i missing here? - unless you track the car?

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I kind of agree with you.
I'm more of a 0-60 time guy and the GS works for me..

jjscsix

First of all, I appreciate you explaining your point. In my first post on the subject I started my support of turbos with "I never thought I would say this..." Turbos engines have come a long way, and Hyundai is not in the same league as BMW, Ford or GM in turbo technology. I had a BMW 528 loaner for four days. The car felt as fast as our GS and I was seeing over 40 mpg over 20 miles of highway driving.

On the other hand, right here on this form many folks are complaining about the city mpg of the direct injected, normally aspirated GS...which is not consistent with your theory that turbos are worse in that regard.

jjscsix

Like Harry said, we are all here because we own and love the GS, but that should not preclude us from comparing aspects of the car, good or bad, compared to its competitors. I fully understand that some folks are speed junkies and some are not. I am.

harryra

Here...Here!!! Comparing autos should not be a big deal. Members like myself should not be admonished for talking about their other vehicles regardless of their brand or their price. This is after all an automobile forum. What I have found are a few, a slight few I might add, who take exception to anyone who dares to challenge Lexus in any way, shape or form. There are those who's Lexus is the top brand of car they will ever own or have yet to own. There are others who own many brands, only one of which happen to be a Lexus and those who don't own a Lexus and want to gain knowledge of the brand and try to contribute when they can. I happen to covet European autos, in particular German and Italian, but yet I do own a Lexus which I will say again, is a fantastic brand. Lexus like most autos, leave themselves open for comparison. What I find sad is that I'm challenged on comments I make like MPG on an S or C-Class Mercedes by someone who either knows nothing of that brand or has never owned one, or for the fact that I own a few exotic cars.

williakz

Harry,

Your problem is not with your arguments; they are, by and large, sound and well-supported with evidence. Rather, the problem is with your attitude. You are snide, and no amount of throwaway compliments, equivocations, or gently couched barbs hides your true intent from those you target: you are all about putting other people down in order to elevate yourself above them based on the financial resources you command. You've been called on this many times, yet it seems you cannot desist or ameliorate your attitude to any substantial degree. This is unfortunate.

Your experience of actually owning automobiles many of us can only dream of driving places you in a unique position to inform, educate, and ground others in the specifics of what distinguishes the superior from the superlative. Instead, you use that experience to denigrate and disparage those who could learn much from you. I hope you take this opportunity to rethink your participation here; I, for one, truly hope you find a way to use the experience your resources have provided you to benefit us all rather than to delineate and emphasize the differences between us.

harryra

Sad that you see it that way but you're entitled to your opinion. When I first mentioned my other vehicles I was immediately jumped on for not only mentioning other brands but for sounding like I was some rich snob, which was certainly not my intent. After that there was one or two of you that have continued to make "snide" comments or equate your posts to something I might say or due only for the purpose of making fun of me. At the end of the day there are a couple of you that feel you have been around Club Lexus for quite some time and are therefore "entitled" to be here more than us new guys/gals. I've tuned most of that out and quite honestly could care less about what you think of me and certainly won't go out of my way to "sell" you on my finer qualities. The fact that I have what many would think is a privileged life should be of no consequence in this forum yet you have a few members here that have made it an issue.....As for contributing I would like to think I have contributed something, and when I have, there have been a couple of you that either poke fun, or try to invalidate what I have said. If I can not contribute based on my own personal experience then yes, I am truly at the wrong site.....

williakz

Fair enough - POVs exchanged. Let's get back to cars...

sambb

Im the OP, and I still can't figure out, how in the USA, that the engine wouldn't be enough for someone. If someone is a speed addict, still, the car seems capable of going beyond any safe limit for the USA.

I owned bimmers before, including M series, and those cars handle realy well, but the engines also were far too much than any person would ever need. I had an M and it was enough.

Is there some sort of driving that I am missing here, such that people require even more speed? I don't see that need on any road i drive on , and I drive a lot.

I bought the car because it is realy kewl, it is different from a BMW, and it has luxury, sport, looks, etc. I don't need tork or more hp or a different granny tranny, ya know?