2013 GS 350 F-Sport Outhandles 2013 BMW M5 ? Discuss
12-10-12, 04:26 PM
#31
I recently traded in my e60 M5 for a AWD 2013 GS350. It was done at the behest of my wife, who now drives the GS, while I've been relegated to her old 2008 RX350.
While the e60 cost me an arm and a leg on 2 throttle actuators and a new clutch, I felt "special" every time I got into the dark cabin with black leather dash and suede leather overhead lining. This is especially working late at night, coming out at about 10-11 PM on a long project, and my car was the only one in the parking lot. The light came off the flame surfacing just right, making the car seemed to be moving forward while resting.
I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed with the GS! Here I will refrain from any reference to the V10, and simply point out the details from an end user perspective.
I will be going back to BMW as they are innovator and actually trust the driver to do what he wants instead of Lexus who seemed to be a nanny that throws alot of decor but pretty messy under close scrutiny.
While the e60 cost me an arm and a leg on 2 throttle actuators and a new clutch, I felt "special" every time I got into the dark cabin with black leather dash and suede leather overhead lining. This is especially working late at night, coming out at about 10-11 PM on a long project, and my car was the only one in the parking lot. The light came off the flame surfacing just right, making the car seemed to be moving forward while resting.
I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed with the GS! Here I will refrain from any reference to the V10, and simply point out the details from an end user perspective.
I will be going back to BMW as they are innovator and actually trust the driver to do what he wants instead of Lexus who seemed to be a nanny that throws alot of decor but pretty messy under close scrutiny.
So why did I get the Lexus? It drives almost just as good as my 335i. And the darn thing works! (and I had a pretty reasonably reliable 335i compared to others).
I sold the 335i last week with 90k miles on it. Right before selling it I took it to a mechanic to have it checked out for the new owner. He found multiple oil leaks at the engine compartment, the turbo bays, and a bunch of different places. AKA multiple expensive repairs coming up. The saving grace is that the car has an extended 100k mi warranty so the dealer took care of everything.
Since purchased I knew I would never drive another BMW beyond warranty. As good as BMW knows how to make their cars special. They are horrible in the reliability department. Since purchase the thought that 'this is such a special car but I gotta get rid of it before it hits 100k miles' never escaped my mind. To the point that its 'specialness' evaporate to almost nothing by the time the car hits 60k miles. It's almost like this fantasy is not going to last, it's going to give you a headache soon unless you get rid of it. By 80k miles, I'll be honest to say I couldn't wait to get rid of it, even though it worked fine, almost flawless. But the constant worries are always present.
With the Lexus, faults and all. I know it's going to be special because she's going to last. A very long time. So slowly over time I've learn to ignore her shortcomings and appreciate what she's good at. A decent ride with impeccable reliability record. Now if I was planning to lease a new car every 3 years, the BMW gets the vote. But for extended ownership, nothing comes close!
12-10-12, 05:04 PM
#32
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ms04--
Your comparison to your 2007 335i is interesting. Have you driven a 2013 3-series? It's almost embarrassing. The interior is like a cheap rental car. It's that bad. They almost force you to ante up to the 5 series to feel like you haven't wasted your money.
In regards to the criticism in the post prior to that, I must say that the build quality of my GS F-Sport is impeccable. It's built like a tank (just like my 911). It will be especially durable due to its time-tested engine and transmission--which, of course, some will look at negatively since it isn't cutting-edge new technology...
Your comparison to your 2007 335i is interesting. Have you driven a 2013 3-series? It's almost embarrassing. The interior is like a cheap rental car. It's that bad. They almost force you to ante up to the 5 series to feel like you haven't wasted your money.
In regards to the criticism in the post prior to that, I must say that the build quality of my GS F-Sport is impeccable. It's built like a tank (just like my 911). It will be especially durable due to its time-tested engine and transmission--which, of course, some will look at negatively since it isn't cutting-edge new technology...
12-10-12, 07:46 PM
#33
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I recently traded in my e60 M5 for a AWD 2013 GS350. It was done at the behest of my wife, who now drives the GS, while I've been relegated to her old 2008 RX350.
While the e60 cost me an arm and a leg on 2 throttle actuators and a new clutch, I felt "special" every time I got into the dark cabin with black leather dash and suede leather overhead lining. This is especially working late at night, coming out at about 10-11 PM on a long project, and my car was the only one in the parking lot. The light came off the flame surfacing just right, making the car seemed to be moving forward while resting.
I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed with the GS! Here I will refrain from any reference to the V10, and simply point out the details from an end user perspective.
While the e60 cost me an arm and a leg on 2 throttle actuators and a new clutch, I felt "special" every time I got into the dark cabin with black leather dash and suede leather overhead lining. This is especially working late at night, coming out at about 10-11 PM on a long project, and my car was the only one in the parking lot. The light came off the flame surfacing just right, making the car seemed to be moving forward while resting.
I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed with the GS! Here I will refrain from any reference to the V10, and simply point out the details from an end user perspective.
Last edited by Outrage; 12-10-12 at 07:49 PM.
12-10-12, 07:46 PM
#34
Lexus Champion
Best of luck to you. I hated the orange lighting in my 330Ci and I don't like it anymore today. I love everything about my GS (including the analog clock) and plan on keeping it for a long time to come. I had the Audi MMI, which is similar to BMW iDrive, and I liked the wheel more than the mouse in the GS, but it's not a huge deal for me. I do agree that the Voice Recognition system is subpar, but again... no big deal. For me, it's about the driving experience and the contemporary look of the Cabernet interior, and that is excellent.
We all have different needs, based on our driving habits. I guess if I commuted everyday I might be more critical, but I love my GS F Sport.
We all have different needs, based on our driving habits. I guess if I commuted everyday I might be more critical, but I love my GS F Sport.
12-11-12, 04:06 AM
#35
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Yea, I don't miss trips to the dealer. And having that power train plus extended warranty is an absolute necessity on the e60 m5.
What I'm peeved about the GS is that Lexus is so close yet so far. All those things I mentioned are not expensive fixes. Just put their heads into it and a few tweaks would do. I do like the engine and the tranny.
Why have a wheel (eco-norm-sport) and a mouse? Everything should have a unifying symmetry to it. All I need them to do is clean up the cabin some more. And have an interface that is better thought out.
Fix all that and then come back with a real F model with at least 500hp at around $65000 base, and I'll reconsider.
Personally, Lexus is still a bit of a feminine brand. So if they intend on going after the BMW demographic, there's a bit more learning and adapting to do.
BTW, that $1500 conquest bonus is only valid if I finance through Lexus, no thank u. That is just plain BS.
What I'm peeved about the GS is that Lexus is so close yet so far. All those things I mentioned are not expensive fixes. Just put their heads into it and a few tweaks would do. I do like the engine and the tranny.
Why have a wheel (eco-norm-sport) and a mouse? Everything should have a unifying symmetry to it. All I need them to do is clean up the cabin some more. And have an interface that is better thought out.
Fix all that and then come back with a real F model with at least 500hp at around $65000 base, and I'll reconsider.
Personally, Lexus is still a bit of a feminine brand. So if they intend on going after the BMW demographic, there's a bit more learning and adapting to do.
BTW, that $1500 conquest bonus is only valid if I finance through Lexus, no thank u. That is just plain BS.
Last edited by Steel21; 12-11-12 at 04:13 AM.
12-11-12, 04:12 AM
#36
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Best of luck to you. I hated the orange lighting in my 330Ci and I don't like it anymore today. I love everything about my GS (including the analog clock) and plan on keeping it for a long time to come. I had the Audi MMI, which is similar to BMW iDrive, and I liked the wheel more than the mouse in the GS, but it's not a huge deal for me. I do agree that the Voice Recognition system is subpar, but again... no big deal. For me, it's about the driving experience and the contemporary look of the Cabernet interior, and that is excellent.
We all have different needs, based on our driving habits. I guess if I commuted everyday I might be more critical, but I love my GS F Sport.
We all have different needs, based on our driving habits. I guess if I commuted everyday I might be more critical, but I love my GS F Sport.
12-11-12, 05:00 AM
#37
Yea, I don't miss trips to the dealer. And having that power train plus extended warranty is an absolute necessity on the e60 m5.
What I'm peeved about the GS is that Lexus is so close yet so far. All those things I mentioned are not expensive fixes. Just put their heads into it and a few tweaks would do. I do like the engine and the tranny.
Why have a wheel (eco-norm-sport) and a mouse? Everything should have a unifying symmetry to it. All I need them to do is clean up the cabin some more. And have an interface that is better thought out.
Fix all that and then come back with a real F model with at least 500hp at around $65000 base, and I'll reconsider.
Personally, Lexus is still a bit of a feminine brand. So if they intend on going after the BMW demographic, there's a bit more learning and adapting to do.
BTW, that $1500 conquest bonus is only valid if I finance through Lexus, no thank u. That is just plain BS.
What I'm peeved about the GS is that Lexus is so close yet so far. All those things I mentioned are not expensive fixes. Just put their heads into it and a few tweaks would do. I do like the engine and the tranny.
Why have a wheel (eco-norm-sport) and a mouse? Everything should have a unifying symmetry to it. All I need them to do is clean up the cabin some more. And have an interface that is better thought out.
Fix all that and then come back with a real F model with at least 500hp at around $65000 base, and I'll reconsider.
Personally, Lexus is still a bit of a feminine brand. So if they intend on going after the BMW demographic, there's a bit more learning and adapting to do.
BTW, that $1500 conquest bonus is only valid if I finance through Lexus, no thank u. That is just plain BS.
Can't you just finance and pay the balance off after a month or two to get the $1500?
12-11-12, 05:11 AM
#38
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12-11-12, 06:01 AM
#39
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I would be very curious to see a long term side by side comparison and the cost involved with the 4G GS and the M5. I know I'll get flamed but I feel the German engineered vehicle may hold up better.
In either case I'm sure it's splitting hairs...(Before you flame I just bought my second Lex.)
And I'm sure everyone enjoys a spirited drive but I can’t imagine a major percent of Lexus owners tracking these cars on a regular bases so do all the performance numbers make the difference?
The performance numbers give you a hard figure for comparison purposes but the major contributor to most car buyers is the "Seat of the Pants" test.
In either case I'm sure it's splitting hairs...(Before you flame I just bought my second Lex.)
And I'm sure everyone enjoys a spirited drive but I can’t imagine a major percent of Lexus owners tracking these cars on a regular bases so do all the performance numbers make the difference?
The performance numbers give you a hard figure for comparison purposes but the major contributor to most car buyers is the "Seat of the Pants" test.
12-11-12, 07:36 AM
#40
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Thread Starter
If Steel21 complains about a GS350 F-sport not having additional hp, then why isn't he complaining about the 535i M-sport, the E350 AMG pack and the A6 3.0T S-line which also don't have increased power over the base vehicle?
Lexus isn't pulling a switch and bait. Hello, they called it a GS THREE FIFTY. Buying a GS350 then complaining it doesn't have 500hp seems a bit stupid. They didn't call it the GS600 or GS550 - that should be a big clue to you.
And I would take some minor ergonomic quibbles over the MAJOR irritant of the turbo lag/throttle delay of the 3L turbo engine in the current 5 series.
To the poster above me, no need to speculate. There is this little thing called statistics and statistical studies show that the 5 series breaks down more often and costs more to maintain in the LONG RUN than a GS.
Also why do we care if majority of Lexus owners don't care about sporty driving or the track performance of a GS? Here's a DIRTY little secret : neither do the vast majority of 5 series,E-class and A6 owners. They're either buying the car for the badge, some mysterious connection between prestige and being "German", the luxury features of the car or some combination of the above.
HOWEVER this is a car enthusiast forum where driving performance and handling ability IS important to the forum members and guess what? The handling ability and slalom speed of the GS relative to its competitors like 5 series,A6 IS important to US and the fact that it's superior to the Germans IS important to us.
AND you can bet that it's also important to the enthusiasts on the German forums that the GS is kicking 5 series, A6 and E-class butt on the slalom and track. LOL
Last edited by natnut; 12-11-12 at 07:54 AM.
12-11-12, 07:47 AM
#41
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I recently traded in my e60 M5 for a AWD 2013 GS350. It was done at the behest of my wife, who now drives the GS, while I've been relegated to her old 2008 RX350.
While the e60 cost me an arm and a leg on 2 throttle actuators and a new clutch, I felt "special" every time I got into the dark cabin with black leather dash and suede leather overhead lining. This is especially working late at night, coming out at about 10-11 PM on a long project, and my car was the only one in the parking lot. The light came off the flame surfacing just right, making the car seemed to be moving forward while resting.
I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed with the GS! Here I will refrain from any reference to the V10, and simply point out the details from an end user perspective.
1. Key - The key was horribly thought out. The locking, unlock, trunk, and PANIC button all feels the same. This makes function selection while having the glove on in a cold day seems a bit tedious. Has anyone here triggered the panic button while trying to open the trunk? Can you confidently tell what you are doing while using the remote from inside your pocket?
2. Driver setting selection - While the e60's driver preference cannot be seen while driving (since it was on the outside of the seat), I can tell which I engaged by the contour of the buttons. Can you confidently tell which is 1-2-3 without turning the lights on?
3. Mouse - Take a lesson from BMW and get an idrive system. Think about safety! I know B comes after A, and thus I know approximately how far I need to turn the wheel. with a mouse, there is more hand eye coordination needed on to the screen. Bottom line, you have to spend more time looking at the screen.
4. Menu - no sub menus can be accessed from the main menu screen. While the icons line up behind the main categories, they cannot be accessed by moving horizontally then vertically. Idrive has quick keys. Even the older idrive can access different categories by holding the wheel in any of the 4 directions for 2-3 seconds. Hold up to access phone, down for media, left for air and right for map.
5. Nav - cannot be accessed while car is moving. I HATE THIS. The point of performance is to be a little adventurous some times. Sporty driving is inherently dangerous. So show that you dont trust me with Nav means that I probably can't tap the car to the fullest, reducing my confidence in the rest of the car.
6. Meta data - Album cover cannot be displayed in the nested screen on the right. What good is a huge screen if they can seem to use the real estate?
7. Map views - no perspective view, no google map (Audi), just plain old overhead, boring!
8. Voice recognition - terrible! Learn from Audi!
9. Blue and red lights on the dash - why do I need that? If I am doing 110mph, why would I bother with what color is my dash. If I wanted blue color, I would've bought a Prius.
10. Paddle - Why are the paddles so small? I can't use them. If they are not meant to be used, get rid of them. If they are meant to be used, make them bigger.
11. Clock - Why an analog clock? It takes time to read a clock, give me a digital readout on the main display. Kill all distractions in the cabin. I certainly don't need a lighted clock that doesn't even synch with on board time.
CONCLUSION: BMW seems to have done more with less cabin real estate. Things are better thought out from the first interaction. Menu systems are better, more modern. Color in the car are better integrated. With BMW there is only the menacing but focused orange. Lexus is alot of blue (screen) and black (trim), red and white (clock), just plain ugly.
I will be going back to BMW as they are innovator and actually trust the driver to do what he wants instead of Lexus who seemed to be a nanny that throws alot of decor but pretty messy under close scrutiny.
While the e60 cost me an arm and a leg on 2 throttle actuators and a new clutch, I felt "special" every time I got into the dark cabin with black leather dash and suede leather overhead lining. This is especially working late at night, coming out at about 10-11 PM on a long project, and my car was the only one in the parking lot. The light came off the flame surfacing just right, making the car seemed to be moving forward while resting.
I must say that I am thoroughly disappointed with the GS! Here I will refrain from any reference to the V10, and simply point out the details from an end user perspective.
1. Key - The key was horribly thought out. The locking, unlock, trunk, and PANIC button all feels the same. This makes function selection while having the glove on in a cold day seems a bit tedious. Has anyone here triggered the panic button while trying to open the trunk? Can you confidently tell what you are doing while using the remote from inside your pocket?
2. Driver setting selection - While the e60's driver preference cannot be seen while driving (since it was on the outside of the seat), I can tell which I engaged by the contour of the buttons. Can you confidently tell which is 1-2-3 without turning the lights on?
3. Mouse - Take a lesson from BMW and get an idrive system. Think about safety! I know B comes after A, and thus I know approximately how far I need to turn the wheel. with a mouse, there is more hand eye coordination needed on to the screen. Bottom line, you have to spend more time looking at the screen.
4. Menu - no sub menus can be accessed from the main menu screen. While the icons line up behind the main categories, they cannot be accessed by moving horizontally then vertically. Idrive has quick keys. Even the older idrive can access different categories by holding the wheel in any of the 4 directions for 2-3 seconds. Hold up to access phone, down for media, left for air and right for map.
5. Nav - cannot be accessed while car is moving. I HATE THIS. The point of performance is to be a little adventurous some times. Sporty driving is inherently dangerous. So show that you dont trust me with Nav means that I probably can't tap the car to the fullest, reducing my confidence in the rest of the car.
6. Meta data - Album cover cannot be displayed in the nested screen on the right. What good is a huge screen if they can seem to use the real estate?
7. Map views - no perspective view, no google map (Audi), just plain old overhead, boring!
8. Voice recognition - terrible! Learn from Audi!
9. Blue and red lights on the dash - why do I need that? If I am doing 110mph, why would I bother with what color is my dash. If I wanted blue color, I would've bought a Prius.
10. Paddle - Why are the paddles so small? I can't use them. If they are not meant to be used, get rid of them. If they are meant to be used, make them bigger.
11. Clock - Why an analog clock? It takes time to read a clock, give me a digital readout on the main display. Kill all distractions in the cabin. I certainly don't need a lighted clock that doesn't even synch with on board time.
CONCLUSION: BMW seems to have done more with less cabin real estate. Things are better thought out from the first interaction. Menu systems are better, more modern. Color in the car are better integrated. With BMW there is only the menacing but focused orange. Lexus is alot of blue (screen) and black (trim), red and white (clock), just plain ugly.
I will be going back to BMW as they are innovator and actually trust the driver to do what he wants instead of Lexus who seemed to be a nanny that throws alot of decor but pretty messy under close scrutiny.
As for the clock it seems to be trendy, Benz does it now too. So many people complained the digital clock looked 'Cheap"
iDrive has greatly improved. Some things I still don't get but I do like the system and it clearly led the way for Benz, Audi, Lexus.
12-11-12, 08:36 AM
#42
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If you look at the mechanics alone, and the changes necessary to go from a e60 530i to a M5 should not be proportional to the difference in horsepower. Hence, just because a M5 is 2X the power, there is no reason why it should 2X the price other than market segmentation and pricing.
Look at it another way, the M5 has the same body, electronics as the 530. The engine and transmission is more expensive because of the small quantity of build. If Lexus were to build it en mass, then the cost should be substantially less.
I know crap about Toyota engine. After a quick Wiki search maybe the 2UR-GSE is a good candidate. It might not get you 500hp, but 420 will do for now. They already make it for the ISF. Maybe bore it out a bit more.
Compression added complexity and risk to mechanical failure, which added testing cost.
On the other hand, if activeautowerke can make a complete supercharge kit for $12,800 with their limited manufacturing and logistic chain, there is no reason Toyota can do it for $6-8,000.
Toss in an transmission at $3-5000, then add $2000 for suspension and some fancy trim for $2000 and you have a base price of around $65-70k
I think the cost to build a base GS is probably somewhere around $45k, add $20-25K and we have the GS-F. Am I saying they should sell it at cost... YES. You need to get to critical mass. I think the ISF was a failure because it did not reach critical mass.
When full optioned out, the car should be no more than $75-000 after adding HUD, CF, fancier wheels, radar etc.
While on the topic of radar, Lexus should just go ahead and offer integarted radar detector in collaboration with Escort and Valentine. It would create ALOT of buzz in the market.
Look, if you want to get in the market you have to pay a premium up front in order to get the brand faithfuls away from ///M and AMG. Anything less than a $20k will not be enticing enough.
Once the brand is established, then Lexus can move up the price a bit.
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In regards to the 550i, I was going to get this one http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...nal&listType=1 but my wife insist on Lexus. Yes, it actually cheaper! 2011 550i, $49K, 3400 miles.
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As with the clock, I know Porsche has it too. I'm not saying get a digital clock. What I am saying is that it should be built into the display. Single source for information.
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As a reply to the "dirty secret", I don't really care for the majority of 5ers. The only drivers that I get a nudging nod to are M and AMG and RS owners. To me, the M cars are the essence of BMW.
Last edited by Steel21; 12-11-12 at 08:46 AM.
12-11-12, 08:55 AM
#43
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Basically, I saying that Lexus should build the equivalent of an upmarket Holden Commodore Clubsport R8.
It does not have to be as refined as BMW or AMG in terms of balance, power management and driving dynamic.
It should be more luxurious than the up coming 2014 Chevy SS.
In short, the vehicle I envision should be 85-90% of a M5 for about 70% of the $$$
It does not have to be as refined as BMW or AMG in terms of balance, power management and driving dynamic.
It should be more luxurious than the up coming 2014 Chevy SS.
In short, the vehicle I envision should be 85-90% of a M5 for about 70% of the $$$
12-11-12, 09:13 AM
#44
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Basically, I saying that Lexus should build the equivalent of an upmarket Holden Commodore Clubsport R8.
It does not have to be as refined as BMW or AMG in terms of balance, power management and driving dynamic.
It should be more luxurious than the up coming 2014 Chevy SS.
In short, the vehicle I envision should be 85-90% of a M5 for about 70% of the $$$
It does not have to be as refined as BMW or AMG in terms of balance, power management and driving dynamic.
It should be more luxurious than the up coming 2014 Chevy SS.
In short, the vehicle I envision should be 85-90% of a M5 for about 70% of the $$$
12-11-12, 09:15 AM
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Oh, I forgot #11: Traffic info
When I drive the GS, it will have traffic accident icons on the screen.
It take a crap load of time to move the cursor to the icon to see a message on what is going on up a head.
Depending on the zoom level of the map, I can actually have an accident trying to move the cursor on to the incident icon on the route.
Well, if I do have an accident because my eyes are on the screen instead of the road, I might have some idea what's causing the incident at my location.
BMW allows me to scroll to the screen and see what is going on up ahead and how far I am from the problem.
LEXUS: FIGURE IT OUT AND FIX IT NOW!
When I drive the GS, it will have traffic accident icons on the screen.
It take a crap load of time to move the cursor to the icon to see a message on what is going on up a head.
Depending on the zoom level of the map, I can actually have an accident trying to move the cursor on to the incident icon on the route.
Well, if I do have an accident because my eyes are on the screen instead of the road, I might have some idea what's causing the incident at my location.
BMW allows me to scroll to the screen and see what is going on up ahead and how far I am from the problem.
LEXUS: FIGURE IT OUT AND FIX IT NOW!