"I didn't want this car" - Akio Toyoda, about the 4GS
09-02-11, 05:37 AM
#61
Pole Position
Loved the 2GS, HAAAATED the 3GS, 4GS fills me with hope that Lexus is back on track again.
IMO, 3GS failed not because of lack of engine options or low power but due to the fact that in essence, it's cabin interior volume wasn't any more useable than that of the cheaper 2IS and it's driving feel was numb.
Cue the 4GS with larger interior volume and possibly class-leading driving dynamics and I fail to see what the hand-wringing over this article is about : Akio Toyoda wanted to kill the 4GS but hasn't because he finally fixed what were the 2 main bugbears of the 3GS.
IMO, 3GS failed not because of lack of engine options or low power but due to the fact that in essence, it's cabin interior volume wasn't any more useable than that of the cheaper 2IS and it's driving feel was numb.
Cue the 4GS with larger interior volume and possibly class-leading driving dynamics and I fail to see what the hand-wringing over this article is about : Akio Toyoda wanted to kill the 4GS but hasn't because he finally fixed what were the 2 main bugbears of the 3GS.
09-02-11, 09:24 AM
#62
Loved the 2GS, HAAAATED the 3GS, 4GS fills me with hope that Lexus is back on track again.
IMO, 3GS failed not because of lack of engine options or low power but due to the fact that in essence, it's cabin interior volume wasn't any more useable than that of the cheaper 2IS and it's driving feel was numb.
Cue the 4GS with larger interior volume and possibly class-leading driving dynamics and I fail to see what the hand-wringing over this article is about : Akio Toyoda wanted to kill the 4GS but hasn't because he finally fixed what were the 2 main bugbears of the 3GS.
IMO, 3GS failed not because of lack of engine options or low power but due to the fact that in essence, it's cabin interior volume wasn't any more useable than that of the cheaper 2IS and it's driving feel was numb.
Cue the 4GS with larger interior volume and possibly class-leading driving dynamics and I fail to see what the hand-wringing over this article is about : Akio Toyoda wanted to kill the 4GS but hasn't because he finally fixed what were the 2 main bugbears of the 3GS.
To say the interior of the 3GS wasn't more useable than the 2IS just doesn't make sense. I've driven the 2IS as a loaner. It feels like you're stuffed into a casket. Big guys suffer in that car. I drive my 3GS everyday and it has plenty of room for my big butt. Define useable...maybe it means something different to you than it does to me.
09-02-11, 10:22 AM
#63
in the short run, yes. but you have to look at a much bigger picture. toyota already holds pretty much the first place in hybrid technology, and the application is so wide already across toyota and lexus lineup. so it's not right to say that a lot of r&d is spent solely on the gsh. that's not true. plus, although still an unknown, given enough time, maybe hybrid will come out to be the number 1 solution for power / fuel efficiency. we just don't know yet, but for sure toyota is buying into it.
09-02-11, 12:25 PM
#64
I believe you are wrong on this one. There's a world of difference between GS/LS-h and Toyotas mainstream hybrids. The Prius and other mainstream hybirds I believe just have an electric engine that assists the ICE, and all the torque is transferred to the front wheels through the CVT, so its a relatively simple system. In the GS-H you have what, three electric motors, two of them driving the front wheels? I don't think their torque is even transferred through the transmission, so you lose the convenience of differentials, and have to have some complex sensors and electronics to keep everything in sync. Its an incredibly complicated system, but people don't appreciate it at all... They describe it as a fancy Prius.
09-02-11, 01:14 PM
#65
Lexus Champion
I see no ES or Camry or Honda in this car. I think people are just making things up because they don't have the car or they're mad they don't have the quad headlights, or something. Everyone has their opinion, but this is a thread about Akio's comments, not what people think it looks like, correct? So on that note I think there was some misplaced translation on his words.
09-02-11, 02:34 PM
#66
Pole Position
You can like or dislike whatever you want but don't make up stuff that isn't true. You invalidate all your good points when you fake on a bad point.
To say the interior of the 3GS wasn't more useable than the 2IS just doesn't make sense. I've driven the 2IS as a loaner. It feels like you're stuffed into a casket. Big guys suffer in that car. I drive my 3GS everyday and it has plenty of room for my big butt. Define useable...maybe it means something different to you than it does to me.
To say the interior of the 3GS wasn't more useable than the 2IS just doesn't make sense. I've driven the 2IS as a loaner. It feels like you're stuffed into a casket. Big guys suffer in that car. I drive my 3GS everyday and it has plenty of room for my big butt. Define useable...maybe it means something different to you than it does to me.
I can forgive the 2IS it's crampedness because it's meant to be a compact zippy little car but I find the fact my dad kept hitting his head on the door frame of the 3GS while getting out of the driver's seat unforgiveable in a car meant to compete in the MID-SIZE luxury segment. And it didn't even have great driving feel to compensate for it's lack of passenger leg/head space.
Right now, only the preliminary reports on the 4GS' supposedly great drive and larger cabin/trunk are giving me hope that my next sedan will be a Lexus.
09-02-11, 07:49 PM
#68
In comparison to my 2GS, both the 3GS and 2IS are equally hopeless interior volume-wise( IMO). If it makes you feel any better, I maybe hated sitting in the 2IS a little bit more. Both 2IS/3GS made me feel claustrophobic after my experience in the 2GS.Let me put it this way : both the 2IS and the 3GS feel like 1/2 a size smaller in comparison to the 2GS.
I can forgive the 2IS it's crampedness because it's meant to be a compact zippy little car but I find the fact my dad kept hitting his head on the door frame of the 3GS while getting out of the driver's seat unforgiveable in a car meant to compete in the MID-SIZE luxury segment. And it didn't even have great driving feel to compensate for it's lack of passenger leg/head space.
Right now, only the preliminary reports on the 4GS' supposedly great drive and larger cabin/trunk are giving me hope that my next sedan will be a Lexus.
I can forgive the 2IS it's crampedness because it's meant to be a compact zippy little car but I find the fact my dad kept hitting his head on the door frame of the 3GS while getting out of the driver's seat unforgiveable in a car meant to compete in the MID-SIZE luxury segment. And it didn't even have great driving feel to compensate for it's lack of passenger leg/head space.
Right now, only the preliminary reports on the 4GS' supposedly great drive and larger cabin/trunk are giving me hope that my next sedan will be a Lexus.
09-03-11, 10:22 PM
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
In comparison to my 2GS, both the 3GS and 2IS are equally hopeless interior volume-wise( IMO). If it makes you feel any better, I maybe hated sitting in the 2IS a little bit more. Both 2IS/3GS made me feel claustrophobic after my experience in the 2GS.Let me put it this way : both the 2IS and the 3GS feel like 1/2 a size smaller in comparison to the 2GS.
I can forgive the 2IS it's crampedness because it's meant to be a compact zippy little car but I find the fact my dad kept hitting his head on the door frame of the 3GS while getting out of the driver's seat unforgiveable in a car meant to compete in the MID-SIZE luxury segment. And it didn't even have great driving feel to compensate for it's lack of passenger leg/head space.
Right now, only the preliminary reports on the 4GS' supposedly great drive and larger cabin/trunk are giving me hope that my next sedan will be a Lexus.
I can forgive the 2IS it's crampedness because it's meant to be a compact zippy little car but I find the fact my dad kept hitting his head on the door frame of the 3GS while getting out of the driver's seat unforgiveable in a car meant to compete in the MID-SIZE luxury segment. And it didn't even have great driving feel to compensate for it's lack of passenger leg/head space.
Right now, only the preliminary reports on the 4GS' supposedly great drive and larger cabin/trunk are giving me hope that my next sedan will be a Lexus.
Seem the 4GS will be roomier but the GS stays around teh same size with an 18 cube trunk.
09-04-11, 12:58 AM
#70
Pole Position
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Lexus needs to sustain some permanent DNA in their cars. Every 5 years, you get designs that are pretty decent, but never good enough to be sustained.
BMW is a master of retaining their DNA. Look @ their bull nose grills. They're on every single BMW in some shape or form. Even though it doesn't look good on every single BMW, they are somehow able to work around that grill and make sexy cars!
Audi got smart and pursued a similar method. The Audi grill! Now, all their cars start their designs around that center piece and work their way down.
Lexus (Acura, Infiniti, etc) need something like what the Germans are doing, a baseline design characteristic.
BMW is a master of retaining their DNA. Look @ their bull nose grills. They're on every single BMW in some shape or form. Even though it doesn't look good on every single BMW, they are somehow able to work around that grill and make sexy cars!
Audi got smart and pursued a similar method. The Audi grill! Now, all their cars start their designs around that center piece and work their way down.
Lexus (Acura, Infiniti, etc) need something like what the Germans are doing, a baseline design characteristic.
09-04-11, 06:39 PM
#72
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: southern cali, san gabriel valley
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totally agree, I like japanese and korean cars but the europeans just keep hitting the sweet spot in terms of design.
Lexus needs to sustain some permanent DNA in their cars. Every 5 years, you get designs that are pretty decent, but never good enough to be sustained.
BMW is a master of retaining their DNA. Look @ their bull nose grills. They're on every single BMW in some shape or form. Even though it doesn't look good on every single BMW, they are somehow able to work around that grill and make sexy cars!
Audi got smart and pursued a similar method. The Audi grill! Now, all their cars start their designs around that center piece and work their way down.
Lexus (Acura, Infiniti, etc) need something like what the Germans are doing, a baseline design characteristic.
BMW is a master of retaining their DNA. Look @ their bull nose grills. They're on every single BMW in some shape or form. Even though it doesn't look good on every single BMW, they are somehow able to work around that grill and make sexy cars!
Audi got smart and pursued a similar method. The Audi grill! Now, all their cars start their designs around that center piece and work their way down.
Lexus (Acura, Infiniti, etc) need something like what the Germans are doing, a baseline design characteristic.
09-05-11, 01:11 AM
#73
I've heard a lot of criticisms of the 3GS, but cabin size was never one of them. Maybe it wasn't big enough for you personally, which is fine for you to say, but to make a blanket statement that this is the general consensus on the GS throughout the car-buying public is a bit of a stretch. Also, I have driven the 2IS. There is no way that it feels similar in size to a 3GS. The 2IS feels tiny and cramped in comparison, though it is a fun car to zip around in.
As far as "numb" driving feel of the 3GS, while I disagree, I admit that is a generally held opinion of the masses. My 3GS has steering feel equivalent to that of a BMW. I sometimes wonder if I am going crazy because everyone says it has numb feeling, yet I don't see it. I've driven the E60 5 Series, the current 6 Series, a 2011 7 Series with the M package (don't know if it had any mechanical upgrades but it had the M kit, rims, and steering wheel), and a 2011 1 Series 5-door Hatchback. I felt no noticeable difference in steering feel on the Lexus.
I wonder if people are dittoheading the steering feel comments or if I am just completely incapable of measuring steering feel.
FYI, my favorite of all the BMWs I drove was the 1 Series followed by the 6 Series. Of course the 6 was 10X nicer and the power is not comparable, but I drove the 1 Series from Stuttgart to Venice this past week and it was a great little car to dart around in. With the M Steering wheel, and sport suspension it was a great to drive in the twisty Italian mountains. Looked good with the factory M body kit and upgraded M wheels too. Currently I drive an E39 around Germany as my beater and it sucks, mainly due to its age and not feeling crisp anymore. My E39 definitely has numb steering. I am also a former E30 owner. Sorry had to post that history before people start saying I don't know anything about BMWs.
Last edited by jre002; 09-05-11 at 01:23 AM.
09-05-11, 10:38 AM
#74
As far as Mr. Toyoda saying he didn't want the 4GS... ridiculous. He is out of touch to even think that. The GS is a must-build for Lexus.
I've heard a lot of criticisms of the 3GS, but cabin size was never one of them. Maybe it wasn't big enough for you personally, which is fine for you to say, but to make a blanket statement that this is the general consensus on the GS throughout the car-buying public is a bit of a stretch. Also, I have driven the 2IS. There is no way that it feels similar in size to a 3GS. The 2IS feels tiny and cramped in comparison, though it is a fun car to zip around in.
As far as "numb" driving feel of the 3GS, while I disagree, I admit that is a generally held opinion of the masses. My 3GS has steering feel equivalent to that of a BMW. I sometimes wonder if I am going crazy because everyone says it has numb feeling, yet I don't see it. I've driven the E60 5 Series, the current 6 Series, a 2011 7 Series with the M package (don't know if it had any mechanical upgrades but it had the M kit, rims, and steering wheel), and a 2011 1 Series 5-door Hatchback. I felt no noticeable difference in steering feel on the Lexus.
I wonder if people are dittoheading the steering feel comments or if I am just completely incapable of measuring steering feel.
FYI, my favorite of all the BMWs I drove was the 1 Series followed by the 6 Series. Of course the 6 was 10X nicer and the power is not comparable, but I drove the 1 Series from Stuttgart to Venice this past week and it was a great little car to dart around in. With the M Steering wheel, and sport suspension it was a great to drive in the twisty Italian mountains. Looked good with the factory M body kit and upgraded M wheels too. Currently I drive an E39 around Germany as my beater and it sucks, mainly due to its age and not feeling crisp anymore. My E39 definitely has numb steering. I am also a former E30 owner. Sorry had to post that history before people start saying I don't know anything about BMWs.
I've heard a lot of criticisms of the 3GS, but cabin size was never one of them. Maybe it wasn't big enough for you personally, which is fine for you to say, but to make a blanket statement that this is the general consensus on the GS throughout the car-buying public is a bit of a stretch. Also, I have driven the 2IS. There is no way that it feels similar in size to a 3GS. The 2IS feels tiny and cramped in comparison, though it is a fun car to zip around in.
As far as "numb" driving feel of the 3GS, while I disagree, I admit that is a generally held opinion of the masses. My 3GS has steering feel equivalent to that of a BMW. I sometimes wonder if I am going crazy because everyone says it has numb feeling, yet I don't see it. I've driven the E60 5 Series, the current 6 Series, a 2011 7 Series with the M package (don't know if it had any mechanical upgrades but it had the M kit, rims, and steering wheel), and a 2011 1 Series 5-door Hatchback. I felt no noticeable difference in steering feel on the Lexus.
I wonder if people are dittoheading the steering feel comments or if I am just completely incapable of measuring steering feel.
FYI, my favorite of all the BMWs I drove was the 1 Series followed by the 6 Series. Of course the 6 was 10X nicer and the power is not comparable, but I drove the 1 Series from Stuttgart to Venice this past week and it was a great little car to dart around in. With the M Steering wheel, and sport suspension it was a great to drive in the twisty Italian mountains. Looked good with the factory M body kit and upgraded M wheels too. Currently I drive an E39 around Germany as my beater and it sucks, mainly due to its age and not feeling crisp anymore. My E39 definitely has numb steering. I am also a former E30 owner. Sorry had to post that history before people start saying I don't know anything about BMWs.
09-05-11, 12:20 PM
#75
sorry, i had the gs400 and now gs350. i complained about the cabin size. my wife complained about it. my parents complained about it. my friend who drove my car complained about it. my friends who rode in my car complained about it. my friend with e class complained about it. it might not be all 3gs owners, but i know more people than i can even keep count of who complain about cabin space of the 3gs, for a mid-size sedan
