Official GS-F discussion
08-25-11, 03:26 PM
#151
it's also a form of power with quite a bit of added weight, at least in current form, likely both front (engine) and rear (battery). that to me is a big reason for yrs to come ahead to really refine on the capacity (need to be able to sustain certain amount of track driving) and weight. current form, i am just not sure. simple as that
Everything have to start somewhere, this is just the beginning. I am with you, 5-10 years from now when the battery is compact, lightweight and very powerful, performance hybrid or electric cars in general, will be very potent.
08-25-11, 04:12 PM
#152
Now I know what you meant. Of course this 1st generation of performance hybrid is definitely not matured in design, it is just good enough to function, but not great by any means.
Everything have to start somewhere, this is just the beginning. I am with you, 5-10 years from now when the battery is compact, lightweight and very powerful, performance hybrid or electric cars in general, will be very potent.
Everything have to start somewhere, this is just the beginning. I am with you, 5-10 years from now when the battery is compact, lightweight and very powerful, performance hybrid or electric cars in general, will be very potent.
08-25-11, 05:30 PM
#153
Now I know what you meant. Of course this 1st generation of performance hybrid is definitely not matured in design, it is just good enough to function, but not great by any means.
Everything have to start somewhere, this is just the beginning. I am with you, 5-10 years from now when the battery is compact, lightweight and very powerful, performance hybrid or electric cars in general, will be very potent.
Everything have to start somewhere, this is just the beginning. I am with you, 5-10 years from now when the battery is compact, lightweight and very powerful, performance hybrid or electric cars in general, will be very potent.
Next gen GS450h will lose 150lbs.
Weight is not an problem for GS-Fh.
Problem is how to charge battery in order to always have enough juice on the track. It would have to use some kind of aggressive recharge mode that would use engine power more during the braking, to recharge the battery so you would have enough juice to boost once out of curve. But since tracks are all created differently, there would have to be several modes to it.
Nimh hybrids use a little bit less than 50hp of electric "turbo", the difference is that with electric motors, power is there instantly, so it feels huge right away.
For GS-Fh they would need to get more power out of battery (electric motors are already a lot more powerful in GS450h), lets say 100hp. This is where you need to use lion batteries.
But then you need to also double the size so it is more like 2-2.5kw so that means 250lbs. Which is still not bad. But problem is that on track, you boost and you spend the energy, braking hard for 5 seconds will not be able to recover that energy - you will need engine to agressivly recharge batteries while you are braking (which is why Toyota hybrids have 2 motors, to be able to recharge batteries at any time). This is where problem arrives - how the heck do they know if you are on track with high average speeds or something with a lot of turns?
So in fact, "instant 100%" power of electric motors is considerably nicer than standard turbo, problem is how to recharge that power properly for the road/track car.
08-25-11, 05:43 PM
#154
i dont think current 220lbs of added weight is an issue - for instance in Camry Hybrid.
Next gen GS450h will lose 150lbs.
Weight is not an problem for GS-Fh.
Problem is how to charge battery in order to always have enough juice on the track. It would have to use some kind of aggressive recharge mode that would use engine power more during the braking, to recharge the battery so you would have enough juice to boost once out of curve. But since tracks are all created differently, there would have to be several modes to it.
Nimh hybrids use a little bit less than 50hp of electric "turbo", the difference is that with electric motors, power is there instantly, so it feels huge right away.
For GS-Fh they would need to get more power out of battery (electric motors are already a lot more powerful in GS450h), lets say 100hp. This is where you need to use lion batteries.
But then you need to also double the size so it is more like 2-2.5kw so that means 250lbs. Which is still not bad. But problem is that on track, you boost and you spend the energy, braking hard for 5 seconds will not be able to recover that energy - you will need engine to agressivly recharge batteries while you are braking (which is why Toyota hybrids have 2 motors, to be able to recharge batteries at any time). This is where problem arrives - how the heck do they know if you are on track with high average speeds or something with a lot of turns?
So in fact, "instant 100%" power of electric motors is considerably nicer than standard turbo, problem is how to recharge that power properly for the road/track car.
Next gen GS450h will lose 150lbs.
Weight is not an problem for GS-Fh.
Problem is how to charge battery in order to always have enough juice on the track. It would have to use some kind of aggressive recharge mode that would use engine power more during the braking, to recharge the battery so you would have enough juice to boost once out of curve. But since tracks are all created differently, there would have to be several modes to it.
Nimh hybrids use a little bit less than 50hp of electric "turbo", the difference is that with electric motors, power is there instantly, so it feels huge right away.
For GS-Fh they would need to get more power out of battery (electric motors are already a lot more powerful in GS450h), lets say 100hp. This is where you need to use lion batteries.
But then you need to also double the size so it is more like 2-2.5kw so that means 250lbs. Which is still not bad. But problem is that on track, you boost and you spend the energy, braking hard for 5 seconds will not be able to recover that energy - you will need engine to agressivly recharge batteries while you are braking (which is why Toyota hybrids have 2 motors, to be able to recharge batteries at any time). This is where problem arrives - how the heck do they know if you are on track with high average speeds or something with a lot of turns?
So in fact, "instant 100%" power of electric motors is considerably nicer than standard turbo, problem is how to recharge that power properly for the road/track car.
i looked up toyota.com. current camry xle (3680) vs hybrid (3373), difference is 300lb. looking at lexus.com, gs350 (3704) vs gs450h (4134), difference goes up to 430lb.
it seems like you are trying to quote the optimistic numbers to reduce the effect. even with current generation the hybrid system on gs is already 130lb heavier than that in camry
if your 220lb figure is on the new camry, i will only imagine gsh to have the similar kind of hybrid system, which means gsh will be 350lb heavier. and then if they have to increase the capacity or so, it will make it even heavier.
of course, if lexus has new technology and other details bringing down that weight that will be great. and that's pretty much what i am hoping before before i think hybrid is a good viable option for power
Last edited by rominl; 08-25-11 at 05:47 PM.
08-25-11, 06:28 PM
#156
The issue is always energy storage, that means weight and size of the battery. In the future when the weight and size of the battery is tiny and it provide huge energy, then the car will be fast.
Last edited by BNR34; 08-25-11 at 06:35 PM.
08-25-11, 10:47 PM
#157
Lexus Champion
Toyota is getting back into LeMans, and with that effort, rumors have it they'll be entering LMP1 class with a hybrid. I'm pretty sure they have high efficiency batteries that can store 100+hp and weigh very little. Braking power along with exhaust gas recovery systems can add to the recharge power. High performance brakes with the GS-F can help as well. This technology already exists in F1. If they have a V8, it'll have at least 415hp from the IS-F, coupled with the battery power and weight savings in an F model I bet they can hit 3900lbs. and have 515hp at least. This is just speculation, but I believe it is achievable.
08-26-11, 08:24 AM
#160
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i think it will live up to one or the other.
prob 80k at 420hp.
not as fast as an e63 but not as expensive either.
but the bigger question is WHEN?
prob 80k at 420hp.
not as fast as an e63 but not as expensive either.
but the bigger question is WHEN?
08-26-11, 08:50 AM
#162
Nothing does 
E63/M5/RS6/XFR-S got the performance, driving feel and prestige, but cost a grip, doesn't work all the time and doesn't last very long.
There is not a single car in this world that offer everything perfectly.
E63/M5/RS6/XFR-S got the performance, driving feel and prestige, but cost a grip, doesn't work all the time and doesn't last very long.
There is not a single car in this world that offer everything perfectly.
Last edited by BNR34; 08-26-11 at 08:54 AM.
08-26-11, 09:07 AM
#163
Driver School Candidate
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I hope the V10 does come to the GS series. Wouldn't make any sense for it not to. I mean, why invest so much money and time in such an engine in order to only sell a thousand of them? It doesn't make business sense. Put that engine in the GS-F and, boom, you have a new halo car. Also, these are luxury vehicles. Status matters a lot and having a hybrid as your top performer does not compute. Besides, since Toyota is the world's largest automotive company, why can't you have both?
08-26-11, 10:10 AM
#164
I hope the V10 does come to the GS series. Wouldn't make any sense for it not to. I mean, why invest so much money and time in such an engine in order to only sell a thousand of them? It doesn't make business sense. Put that engine in the GS-F and, boom, you have a new halo car. Also, these are luxury vehicles. Status matters a lot and having a hybrid as your top performer does not compute. Besides, since Toyota is the world's largest automotive company, why can't you have both?
08-26-11, 10:49 AM
#165
Super Moderator
Some seem to be talking about the V10 like it's sacred because it's in the LFA , other manufacturers have put twin turbo V12's in their cars and they are bigger and even more luxuriously equipped and still can sell them at low $100k range ... Will a turbo v8 be that much cheaper?
I would rather see them build a more expensive GS-F and make a splash than a budget one that is underpowered and not really competitive, or at best, does not stand out.
If they really want to commit to building a reputation for their F cars, they should take a longer term view and not worry too much about immediate profits or selling a lot of them, but try making a mark with it's first attempt first , either price it a little higher and not worry about selling many of them, or price it relatively low but still make it stand out among competitors and not worry about profits , just like how they probably underprice their first LS500 when the Lexus brand were first introduce ...