Looking for family car - torn between '08 450h and '08 350 AWD
11-25-09, 06:48 AM
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Looking for family car - torn between '08 450h and '08 350 AWD
Hi all--
I am currently driving a 335i, which I love to death in many ways, but I'm tired of my daily driver and my fun machine being one and the same. So, I would like to trade in my 335 for a GS and get a separate dedicated toy, but I'm torn between two models I really like: the 450h and the AWD 350.
The first problem is that I cannot find an AWD350 CPO within a decent radius with ML. I do enjoy music (mostly alternative/rock), and I was wondering how big the difference is between the ML system and the standard one. My wife's RX has ML, and I love it, but I'm unsure as to whether or not the standard system is crap (like BMW's). So, I would like to know how "necessary" this option is for someone who considers themselves somewhat an audiophile.
Second problem is: trying to get a feel for how good the AWD system is. I can't really take it for a spin in snow right now. I do realize that RWD with snow tires is still ok for getting around if you're not a complete jackass (although it can still be difficult once in a while). However, I do miss the ability of my Disco to let me not have to concentrate so absolutely much when trouncing through the white stuff. And the whole point is to get a car that's better for family transportation....
Related to the AWD question is wtf was Lexus thinking when they chose the wheel offset / size / lift combo for this car? They destroy the elegance of it and because of the massive c-pillar, it looks as if the car is wearing doughnuts on its hindquarters.... I don't want to have to get coilovers to achieve a ride height right at or only slightly lower than RWD height, and the whole point was to get something that I liked "as-is" as my modding habit needs to be directed and focused on my toy.
The 450h I'm looking at is loaded with pretty much everything I think. Whatever the active damper system is, ML, etc.... I guess the only issue I have with it (besides the fact that the dealer is asking $5k over high retail) is that the whole point of getting out of the 335 is to get into something that I don't want to mod; something that will stay OEM and doesn't inspire the BMW driver in me. The 450h is quick, level in corners, and reminds me a lot of a sports sedan, while the 350 rolls and squats while not being the athelete.... But it also offers the peace of mind of AWD in the winter here, which is a big thing to me (of course I would be putting on snow shoes, AWD or not).
So, I guess my question is parallel to the "i" vs "xi" questions posted on the BMW forums every few minutes, but with Lexus-specific questions, like how good is the AWD system, how much am I going to miss the options on the 450h if I get the 350, is it worth $10k more (450h has 5k miles; 350 has 12k), and re there reliability issues with one setup vs the other (i.e. hybrid drive or AWD system). I know these cars are bulletproof and, other than rattle issues, my reading (as well as owning a Lexus already) leads me to believe that it's not something I'd have to worry about (especially coming from the least reliable car I have EVER owned), but I wanted to know Lexus owners thoughts and perhaps experiences on that same situation.
Again, this is a car that will be my daily which I don't want to feel compelled to mod, but I'm feeling I would have to at least take care of the suspension/wheel issue on the 350 if I went that route.
I am currently driving a 335i, which I love to death in many ways, but I'm tired of my daily driver and my fun machine being one and the same. So, I would like to trade in my 335 for a GS and get a separate dedicated toy, but I'm torn between two models I really like: the 450h and the AWD 350.
The first problem is that I cannot find an AWD350 CPO within a decent radius with ML. I do enjoy music (mostly alternative/rock), and I was wondering how big the difference is between the ML system and the standard one. My wife's RX has ML, and I love it, but I'm unsure as to whether or not the standard system is crap (like BMW's). So, I would like to know how "necessary" this option is for someone who considers themselves somewhat an audiophile.
Second problem is: trying to get a feel for how good the AWD system is. I can't really take it for a spin in snow right now. I do realize that RWD with snow tires is still ok for getting around if you're not a complete jackass (although it can still be difficult once in a while). However, I do miss the ability of my Disco to let me not have to concentrate so absolutely much when trouncing through the white stuff. And the whole point is to get a car that's better for family transportation....
Related to the AWD question is wtf was Lexus thinking when they chose the wheel offset / size / lift combo for this car? They destroy the elegance of it and because of the massive c-pillar, it looks as if the car is wearing doughnuts on its hindquarters.... I don't want to have to get coilovers to achieve a ride height right at or only slightly lower than RWD height, and the whole point was to get something that I liked "as-is" as my modding habit needs to be directed and focused on my toy.
The 450h I'm looking at is loaded with pretty much everything I think. Whatever the active damper system is, ML, etc.... I guess the only issue I have with it (besides the fact that the dealer is asking $5k over high retail) is that the whole point of getting out of the 335 is to get into something that I don't want to mod; something that will stay OEM and doesn't inspire the BMW driver in me. The 450h is quick, level in corners, and reminds me a lot of a sports sedan, while the 350 rolls and squats while not being the athelete.... But it also offers the peace of mind of AWD in the winter here, which is a big thing to me (of course I would be putting on snow shoes, AWD or not).
So, I guess my question is parallel to the "i" vs "xi" questions posted on the BMW forums every few minutes, but with Lexus-specific questions, like how good is the AWD system, how much am I going to miss the options on the 450h if I get the 350, is it worth $10k more (450h has 5k miles; 350 has 12k), and re there reliability issues with one setup vs the other (i.e. hybrid drive or AWD system). I know these cars are bulletproof and, other than rattle issues, my reading (as well as owning a Lexus already) leads me to believe that it's not something I'd have to worry about (especially coming from the least reliable car I have EVER owned), but I wanted to know Lexus owners thoughts and perhaps experiences on that same situation.
Again, this is a car that will be my daily which I don't want to feel compelled to mod, but I'm feeling I would have to at least take care of the suspension/wheel issue on the 350 if I went that route.
11-25-09, 07:02 AM
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Negative. If I wanted zero on-road fun, I'd head back to the LR dealership and get another Disco.
Right now, my daily is also my fun machine, and I'd like to separate them so that I have two vehicles that are great at what they do instead of one jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. I guess I have to define what is a "fun machine" to me. Right now, it's a 360+RWHP sedan that will jar your teeth from your jaw on every pothole, and spends a decent amount of time at the dealer getting substandard failed parts replaced with more substandard parts. My previous fun machines were a supercharged E36 M3, an M3(S52) powered E30 325i, and a Weiand-blown '68 GTO with a bowtie 402 in it (along with a CBR900RR as well). I am looking at the GS because I think it's got the perfect compromise between reliability, space, luxury, and sportiness.
The GS as a family car is still a sports sedan, still fun, still gets up and goes when I need my right foot to do work while merging, but I'd like it to be my dedicated daily. I would much rather spend my commuting time in that cabin than the one I do now. There's a world of difference in the ambiance.
Look, you can make anything you want into a fun machine. Just ask the guys who put the turbo Swift engine into an old Geo and smoke practically everyone they see. I want a fun daily driver that doesn't make me feel like a geriatric, but also doesn't punish me daily on my commute.
Right now, my daily is also my fun machine, and I'd like to separate them so that I have two vehicles that are great at what they do instead of one jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. I guess I have to define what is a "fun machine" to me. Right now, it's a 360+RWHP sedan that will jar your teeth from your jaw on every pothole, and spends a decent amount of time at the dealer getting substandard failed parts replaced with more substandard parts. My previous fun machines were a supercharged E36 M3, an M3(S52) powered E30 325i, and a Weiand-blown '68 GTO with a bowtie 402 in it (along with a CBR900RR as well). I am looking at the GS because I think it's got the perfect compromise between reliability, space, luxury, and sportiness.
The GS as a family car is still a sports sedan, still fun, still gets up and goes when I need my right foot to do work while merging, but I'd like it to be my dedicated daily. I would much rather spend my commuting time in that cabin than the one I do now. There's a world of difference in the ambiance.
Look, you can make anything you want into a fun machine. Just ask the guys who put the turbo Swift engine into an old Geo and smoke practically everyone they see. I want a fun daily driver that doesn't make me feel like a geriatric, but also doesn't punish me daily on my commute.
Last edited by ragingclue; 11-25-09 at 07:08 AM.
11-25-09, 07:45 AM
#4
i have an 06 AWD. driving in the snow last year - 3inches or so on the road - did have me spin out once on my 55mi trek to work. while it does not snow near as often here in MD as it does in IL, i am competent enough behind the wheel in that environment. i have not driven any other AWD sedan in the snow, though i have driven other AWD in 'normal' conditions and this car is not quite as sporty (such as an A4) but it holds its own. i did have the stock runflat dunlops on at the time, and they may have contributed greatly, as they are a crap tire imo. i have broken traction with my new tires (flooring it out of a parkinglot while turning), and the AWD grabs almost instantly in that case. i will say that the car is competent with the right tires, and with the right care behind the wheel. if there is a lot of snow driving, i would look at the GX. the only reason i did not buy that is the lovely 18mpg. lol. good luck in your hunt.
11-25-09, 07:56 AM
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Even with AWD, I'd still prefer dedicated snow tires in the winter, as I've found AWD on AS tires really doesn't make me feel any more comfortable than RWD on snows, for obvious reasons....
And I am currently looking at the GX as well, but I'm not a big SUV kind of guy. I used my Disco for towing, hauling, and the occasional off road romp in the desert (when I lived in SD). Other than that, I hate driving a truck in situations where a car would do just fine. Cars are just so much more compliant and efficient. That being said, I may indeed go with the GX still; it hasn't been completely eliminated from the picture, but the mpg and dullness that a large SUV provide aren't really what I'm looking for.
I tell you what though; I am kind of surprised at how good the mileage is on the GX, relatively speaking. 19 hwy is 27% better than what I achieved with my '04 disco, which was less powerful and smaller (but shaped like the *** end of a brick). Compare that to 25 for the GS350 (which is actually below where I would expect it), and the difference isn't as much as one would assume without seeing the numbers first.
11-25-09, 08:03 AM
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Hi all--
I am currently driving a 335i, which I love to death in many ways, but I'm tired of my daily driver and my fun machine being one and the same. So, I would like to trade in my 335 for a GS and get a separate dedicated toy, but I'm torn between two models I really like: the 450h and the AWD 350.
The first problem is that I cannot find an AWD350 CPO within a decent radius with ML. I do enjoy music (mostly alternative/rock), and I was wondering how big the difference is between the ML system and the standard one. My wife's RX has ML, and I love it, but I'm unsure as to whether or not the standard system is crap (like BMW's). So, I would like to know how "necessary" this option is for someone who considers themselves somewhat an audiophile.
Second problem is: trying to get a feel for how good the AWD system is. I can't really take it for a spin in snow right now. I do realize that RWD with snow tires is still ok for getting around if you're not a complete jackass (although it can still be difficult once in a while). However, I do miss the ability of my Disco to let me not have to concentrate so absolutely much when trouncing through the white stuff. And the whole point is to get a car that's better for family transportation....
Related to the AWD question is wtf was Lexus thinking when they chose the wheel offset / size / lift combo for this car? They destroy the elegance of it and because of the massive c-pillar, it looks as if the car is wearing doughnuts on its hindquarters.... I don't want to have to get coilovers to achieve a ride height right at or only slightly lower than RWD height, and the whole point was to get something that I liked "as-is" as my modding habit needs to be directed and focused on my toy.
The 450h I'm looking at is loaded with pretty much everything I think. Whatever the active damper system is, ML, etc.... I guess the only issue I have with it (besides the fact that the dealer is asking $5k over high retail) is that the whole point of getting out of the 335 is to get into something that I don't want to mod; something that will stay OEM and doesn't inspire the BMW driver in me. The 450h is quick, level in corners, and reminds me a lot of a sports sedan, while the 350 rolls and squats while not being the athelete.... But it also offers the peace of mind of AWD in the winter here, which is a big thing to me (of course I would be putting on snow shoes, AWD or not).
So, I guess my question is parallel to the "i" vs "xi" questions posted on the BMW forums every few minutes, but with Lexus-specific questions, like how good is the AWD system, how much am I going to miss the options on the 450h if I get the 350, is it worth $10k more (450h has 5k miles; 350 has 12k), and re there reliability issues with one setup vs the other (i.e. hybrid drive or AWD system). I know these cars are bulletproof and, other than rattle issues, my reading (as well as owning a Lexus already) leads me to believe that it's not something I'd have to worry about (especially coming from the least reliable car I have EVER owned), but I wanted to know Lexus owners thoughts and perhaps experiences on that same situation.
Again, this is a car that will be my daily which I don't want to feel compelled to mod, but I'm feeling I would have to at least take care of the suspension/wheel issue on the 350 if I went that route.
I am currently driving a 335i, which I love to death in many ways, but I'm tired of my daily driver and my fun machine being one and the same. So, I would like to trade in my 335 for a GS and get a separate dedicated toy, but I'm torn between two models I really like: the 450h and the AWD 350.
The first problem is that I cannot find an AWD350 CPO within a decent radius with ML. I do enjoy music (mostly alternative/rock), and I was wondering how big the difference is between the ML system and the standard one. My wife's RX has ML, and I love it, but I'm unsure as to whether or not the standard system is crap (like BMW's). So, I would like to know how "necessary" this option is for someone who considers themselves somewhat an audiophile.
Second problem is: trying to get a feel for how good the AWD system is. I can't really take it for a spin in snow right now. I do realize that RWD with snow tires is still ok for getting around if you're not a complete jackass (although it can still be difficult once in a while). However, I do miss the ability of my Disco to let me not have to concentrate so absolutely much when trouncing through the white stuff. And the whole point is to get a car that's better for family transportation....
Related to the AWD question is wtf was Lexus thinking when they chose the wheel offset / size / lift combo for this car? They destroy the elegance of it and because of the massive c-pillar, it looks as if the car is wearing doughnuts on its hindquarters.... I don't want to have to get coilovers to achieve a ride height right at or only slightly lower than RWD height, and the whole point was to get something that I liked "as-is" as my modding habit needs to be directed and focused on my toy.
The 450h I'm looking at is loaded with pretty much everything I think. Whatever the active damper system is, ML, etc.... I guess the only issue I have with it (besides the fact that the dealer is asking $5k over high retail) is that the whole point of getting out of the 335 is to get into something that I don't want to mod; something that will stay OEM and doesn't inspire the BMW driver in me. The 450h is quick, level in corners, and reminds me a lot of a sports sedan, while the 350 rolls and squats while not being the athelete.... But it also offers the peace of mind of AWD in the winter here, which is a big thing to me (of course I would be putting on snow shoes, AWD or not).
So, I guess my question is parallel to the "i" vs "xi" questions posted on the BMW forums every few minutes, but with Lexus-specific questions, like how good is the AWD system, how much am I going to miss the options on the 450h if I get the 350, is it worth $10k more (450h has 5k miles; 350 has 12k), and re there reliability issues with one setup vs the other (i.e. hybrid drive or AWD system). I know these cars are bulletproof and, other than rattle issues, my reading (as well as owning a Lexus already) leads me to believe that it's not something I'd have to worry about (especially coming from the least reliable car I have EVER owned), but I wanted to know Lexus owners thoughts and perhaps experiences on that same situation.
Again, this is a car that will be my daily which I don't want to feel compelled to mod, but I'm feeling I would have to at least take care of the suspension/wheel issue on the 350 if I went that route.
1. To me there is a huge difference between ML and the stock system. I cannot see myself not buying a ML equipped Lexus again.
2. GS AWD is fine, I've yet to see an owner complain about the system.
3. I am a fan of the GS350 but fell in love with my 450h. I've yet to drive it in the snow (Atlanta rarely gets snow anyway
). The big heavy battery in the rear should help with "snow" when equipped with snow tires for better traction in the rear. I am just in love with the tech, quiet, cleanliness, torque of the 450h. 4. The mod bug always bites.
He wrote all that and is asking for help and that is what you ask him?
11-25-09, 08:14 AM
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Yeah that's what I'm afraid of.... I have a hard time getting away from it, but if I get myself another project, I think I can direct my modding addiction towards that. I like the GS's (rwd anyway) just how they are (except for maybe too much chrome but whatever). I'm looking at the GS seriously, as opposed to an Audi or a 5er, because I like just how it is from the factory. That's the point.
Well, I have to admit, first thing he probably thought was that "Here comes another stereotypical BMW d-bag implying that Lexuses (Lexi?) can't be sporty". The stereotype doesn't come from nowhere, but I am not one of those guys. Just looking for advice from current owners and perhaps anyone else who has been through a similar decision-making process.
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11-25-09, 08:46 AM
#9
i have the ML, and am fairly pleased with it. my musical taste is across the board, but i listen to primarily classic rock. i am considering swapping amps and processors, as the ML just doesn't have 'enough'. i turn it all the way up, but it just isn't quite loud enough. lol. sounds great though, but a bit of dynamat would make a huge difference as there is a bit of muddiness in the mid bass.
i love my car, but i came from a toyota limited 4runner, and i really miss that truck. i guess i've always liked trucks, and suv's are the best blend of both car and truck. ideally, i'd have both - but i don't think my bank account would like that too much. lol. also - i'm 6'1. there is not a lot of leg room in the rear for teens or adults behind me. not quite as much leg room as i would like.
if you have the ability, it's well worth your time to travel to where there is both a hybrid and AWD so you can test drive them back to back.
i love my car, but i came from a toyota limited 4runner, and i really miss that truck. i guess i've always liked trucks, and suv's are the best blend of both car and truck. ideally, i'd have both - but i don't think my bank account would like that too much. lol. also - i'm 6'1. there is not a lot of leg room in the rear for teens or adults behind me. not quite as much leg room as i would like.
if you have the ability, it's well worth your time to travel to where there is both a hybrid and AWD so you can test drive them back to back.
11-25-09, 08:55 AM
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. So, I was just curious as to how it did. I've lived with RWD in the midwest for my whole life except 7 years in San Diego, but I'm kinda tired of so many white knuckle moments, even with snow tires on, and would like the extra recoverability and take off that AWD affords a driver in those conditions.Driving them back to back, there is no question that I like the hybrid on dry tarmac better. I'm just arguing within myself about whether or not it's ok to forego the pleasure I get in good weather for peace of mind in snow. I know no one can make that decision for me, but it helps to see others' views. Some can be very enlightening.
11-25-09, 11:37 AM
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Well, I have to admit, first thing he probably thought was that "Here comes another stereotypical BMW d-bag implying that Lexuses (Lexi?) can't be sporty". The stereotype doesn't come from nowhere, but I am not one of those guys. Just looking for advice from current owners and perhaps anyone else who has been through a similar decision-making process.
I had a GS350 AWD before my current car, which is a A6 quattro. Between both of these cars, you do not have to forego the pleasure one get in good weather for peace of mind in snow, as you put it. The quattro system is a better AWD system of course, but the GX470, which I happened to own before the GS350 is great in the snow.
You have tough decision to make, the GS450h is a blast to drive in the summer, but I see GS460 with snow tires spin out here in the Boston winter. The GS350 AWD with winter tires is much better in the snow, but the GS350 have rattle problem, if you hate rattles, stay away from the GS. The GX470 is a great SUV, but if you have a Discovery already, then I just dont see the point.
11-25-09, 12:29 PM
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I do not think that at all, I was just trying to a rise out of the board for you. thats all
I had a GS350 AWD before my current car, which is a A6 quattro. Between both of these cars, you do not have to forego the pleasure one get in good weather for peace of mind in snow, as you put it. The quattro system is a better AWD system of course, but the GX470, which I happened to own before the GS350 is great in the snow.
You have tough decision to make, the GS450h is a blast to drive in the summer, but I see GS460 with snow tires spin out here in the Boston winter. The GS350 AWD with winter tires is much better in the snow, but the GS350 have rattle problem, if you hate rattles, stay away from the GS. The GX470 is a great SUV, but if you have a Discovery already, then I just dont see the point.
I had a GS350 AWD before my current car, which is a A6 quattro. Between both of these cars, you do not have to forego the pleasure one get in good weather for peace of mind in snow, as you put it. The quattro system is a better AWD system of course, but the GX470, which I happened to own before the GS350 is great in the snow.
You have tough decision to make, the GS450h is a blast to drive in the summer, but I see GS460 with snow tires spin out here in the Boston winter. The GS350 AWD with winter tires is much better in the snow, but the GS350 have rattle problem, if you hate rattles, stay away from the GS. The GX470 is a great SUV, but if you have a Discovery already, then I just dont see the point.
I think the whole point of the trade is to have that extra peace of mind in winter, so I really should scratch the 450h from my list anyway.... It's not like the stock ride height on the 350 AWD is all that bad anyway, but then again I can't find a CPO one I like at area dealerships with the ML sound.... Crap, now I remember why I hate shopping for used cars when I have specifics in mind.... Then again, shopping new may give you exactly what you want, but the financial hit you take can be staggering. Oh well....
Looks like I'll be looking at the 350 and GX if I can convince the wife that re-acquiring a gas guzzler as a DD is a sound decision....
11-26-09, 11:58 AM
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I'm afraid I fail to understand the desire to remove fun factor from you daily commute. But if that is your goal, buying 450h would be a mistake. No matter how much fun you think 335 is, 450h acceleration is going to be way stronger than 335's. To me that's what makes cars fun.
11-27-09, 05:53 AM
#14
I have an 08 GS AWD w/ML. I live in Western PA and spend a great deal of time in NW PA (in the snow belt from Lake Erie). Over the years, I have owned a 4runner, a Yukon Denali (AWD), several Subarus and a couple of trucks (Tundra and Sierra). Because of the terrain in my neighborhood and the frequent trips into the snow belt, I typically mount winter tires on whatever i'm driving unless I happen to be on brand new all-seasons and i'm not headed to the snow belt.
Having said all that, I have to say the Lexus AWD system is very competent with the right tires. I have gone around a lot of people stuck in the snow in a variety of vehicles including the 328/335IXs, A4s, etc. Again, the tire is the critical link to the road and even the best AWD system won't get you where you need to go in the snow without the right tire. Is the Lexus AWD system better than Subaru? No, it clearly is not. But it's mighty close and i'd rather have mighty close with a real wheel drive bias that excellent with front wheel drive bias (most Subarus).
In the midwest, I think you'll be fine with the GS AWD with winter tires (such as Blizzak's X-Ice, etc). Obviously if you're worried about "deep" snow, the GS is not your daily driver as it doesn't have the ground clearance you would need for deep snow. There you have it ... my 2 cents. Hope it helps and good luck.
Having said all that, I have to say the Lexus AWD system is very competent with the right tires. I have gone around a lot of people stuck in the snow in a variety of vehicles including the 328/335IXs, A4s, etc. Again, the tire is the critical link to the road and even the best AWD system won't get you where you need to go in the snow without the right tire. Is the Lexus AWD system better than Subaru? No, it clearly is not. But it's mighty close and i'd rather have mighty close with a real wheel drive bias that excellent with front wheel drive bias (most Subarus).
In the midwest, I think you'll be fine with the GS AWD with winter tires (such as Blizzak's X-Ice, etc). Obviously if you're worried about "deep" snow, the GS is not your daily driver as it doesn't have the ground clearance you would need for deep snow. There you have it ... my 2 cents. Hope it helps and good luck.
11-27-09, 08:15 AM
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I'm afraid I fail to understand the desire to remove fun factor from you daily commute. But if that is your goal, buying 450h would be a mistake. No matter how much fun you think 335 is, 450h acceleration is going to be way stronger than 335's. To me that's what makes cars fun.
If money is a concern at all get the gs350 and put the 10 grand you save towads your fun car.
Of course the 450h will be faster and more fun.. but like you said, this is going to be the family car not the fun one so you might as well save some cash. There not that much different.