MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

After reading many of the reviews for the new GS 430, it seems to me like VDIM is the one thing that is holding the car back from really competing with the M45 and 545i on a performance level. It seems like it interferes whenever the driving gets somewhat spirited and slows things down, back to a more manageable level and thus cuts out on any white knuckled driving.

Motor Trend made the comment, "Buried deep inside the GS430 is a great car, we just can't find it." It seems like the electronic intervention of VDIM, PCS, and the radar cruise control triggered the comment and have elicited similiar emotions in almost every other review.

What do you guys think? Can we expect such an intrusive system in the new IS 350? What effect will this have on Lexus trying to become a more performance-oriented brand?

-Michael-

Gojirra99

Thw VDIM is a wonderful feature, but they should make it possible for people to turn it off when desired. They better for the new IS350 . . .

TRDFantasy

Yes, this is true. VDIM is actually holding back the GS's performance in return for safety and superior traction in bad weather. An M45 will have no chance in the snow, but VDIM allows you to drive in most snow conditions.

On the IS350, Lexus has already commented that the VDIM system will be less agressively tuned, meaning it will more more flexible than the GS system, allowing you the push the IS350's performance closer to it's maximum. I am hoping such an option will be offered when the new GS350, 450h, and 460 roll around next year.

Ideally, I hope that Lexus offers the ability to turn off VDIM, or at the very least, offer several different VDIM options like "sport", "traction", or "comfort". Then you could switch to whatever you feel like. As much as I can hope, I doubt Lexus will give the ability to turn off VDIM because it provides a lot of great advantages. Simply less agressive VDIM tuning, or different VDIM options should be the best balance.

jrock65

"An M45 will have no chance in the snow"

Have you ever driven one in snow? Your statement may very well be true, but I'd like to know if you're just guessing or this is real world experience.

So do all non-VDIM RWD cars have no chance in snow?

Does the GS300 RWD have no chance in snow? Does the LS430 have no chance in snow?

highmiles

[QUOTE=jrock65 So do all non-VDIM RWD cars have no chance in snow?? [/QUOTE]

The short answer is YES. I've driven my 98 GS400 in snow and ice and it is a handful. NO I nor many others have driven a M on the snow but there have been Threads on CL about the GS on snow.

Clearly VDIM is a huge advantage.

While M owners will leave their cars in the garage and drive their minivans I will be in the middle of the snow (granted I don't see much but it doesn't take much) with confidence in my GS.

yaro1

I agree. But can we not bring the M into this forum again. . I cant stand this bitterness. We all know the GS is a better overall car anyway.

spwolf

I think VDIM is awesome. You are unlikely to drive within the limits of VDIM on regular roads, and if you somehow do - try changing your tires first so your car does not loose control :-).

You can turn VDIM off, and you will never be able to. You cant turn VSC either on any Toyota equipped with such system.

VDIM is actually much smoother than VSC, as proven on test videos, so normal people would only benefit from it, and not really feel it. If you are an test driver that likes to slide into turns on your track then you probably wont like it but if VDIM is actually on, that means you are loosing control of your car and it is slipping. When you have an 300hp car and you lose control on public road, then you better have good system to save your butt since 99% of us wont be able to do it.

If you check GS430's slalom and grip tests, they were on par or better than RL's, and in some tests equal to M45 Sports. I bet if you put equal tires to both cars, it would perform even better. So VDIM will not make your car slower, it will only try to help you with not crashing it into something, and it seems to work fine.

TRDFantasy

No, I haven't. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how RWD cars behave in the snow. It is a fact that it's hard to control a RWD on snowy, or icy conditions.

My dad owns a RWD dually chevy crew cab truck (it's a LONG truck), and he drives it year round for work. My dad though is a very experienced driver, and one night he demonstrated how hard it is to control the truck. That night was icy and snowy. Also this is keeping in mind he had 4 tires at the rear, and they were agressive high traction tires he bought specifically for winter, and for traction during heavy towing.

Sure, if you're a *really* good driver, you can handle it. But the average driver will have a really hard time, and could potentially get into many dangerous situations. For the average driver, a RWD car in the snow is anything but practical.

Several CL members have tested it in the snow. I remember Rockville posted about how he drove the new GS430 in the snow, and compared it to a Gen 2 GS in the snow, and he said major difference. He also said the 430 performed almost as good as a 300 AWD.

EDIT: The rear wheel steering on the M45 will make it behave even worse in the winter, because it will exaggerate the oversteer of the car.

LexFather

VDIM=genius for 99% of Lexus owners.
VDIM=bad news for the 1% of potential people going to the track or who drive like Montayo on public roads.

And I hate to say it but its getting tiring saying the GS is not as sporty but you know what, if you CLAIM to need it, get aMANUAL!!!. Otherwise, we are all dealing with slushboxes and quite frankly, its a moot point. If you really want the FULL 10/10ths, get a S4 V-8 or a 545 V-8, both with manuals.

So here I type what JIM PRESS, Executive VP, Toyota Motor Sales says in March Automobile
Question
Is the 06 GS 430 leading Lexus in the new direction?

Answer
Phase one of LExus was to redefine the luxury car segment. We have maximized customer satisfaction and reninvented the whole dealership experience. We offered an unparalleled level of quality and comfort for a very resonable price. Now we can take Lexus to the next level. Basically, our philosophy is to "zero-nize" and "Maxim-mize" performance. We'll zero-nize all the negatives of the automobile-accidents, emissions, high fuel consumption. We'll "maxi-mize" performance, the thrill of driving and our traditional comfort and value.Our cars have always performed to a high degree, but the visceral, emotioanal feedback hasn't been apparent. Also, the styling hasn't had the emotional satisfaction our customers want. So, each sedan is going to get these emotional componants. First the GS, then the IS and the LS.
Question
Is there room for an ultra-luxury car from Lexus?

Answer
There 's a lot of discussion about it. Personally, I don't feel that the company's ego needs to be exercised by offering a car that just has a lot of content and cost without being the LEXUS of the category. To me, it's better to make a statement with PHILOSOPHY not just hardware. I'd rather see the ultimate hybrid automobile- the best of all worlds "zero-nize" and "maxi-mize".

LexFather

"Everybody Must Win"
The following is from 4 years ago, a speech by Danny Clements. Lexus is more than just about having 1 good car or 2. Its a movement, a philosophy, something clearly, groundbreaking. Anyway

11/07/2001

Denny Clements
J.D. Power and Associates International Automotive Roundtable
November 7, 2001

Thank you Tom, and good evening. It’s great to be here with you. I truly appreciate the invitation.

Speaking to a group of people before the after-dinner coffee has had a chance to kick in is a little nervewracking

That’s a story I’d rather not read in Automotive News: "Lexus Exec Induces Mass Coma."

Then, as Tom was introducing me, I started wondering if J.D. Power has a Satisfaction Index for after-dinner speeches:

What would you call that Tom? The ADS-SI?

So, if I’m a little tense -- that’s why.

I WILL tell you that Lexus is doing very well.

October was another record month for us and our sales are up 9 percent for the year. We’re on track to be the best-selling luxury make for the second year in a row.

For the moment, we’re riding high, as are many other manufacturers.

The SAAR has never been stronger and there’s plenty of market share for everyone. But I don’t think this surge is fueled solely by zero-percent financing.

I really think people are falling in love with their cars all over again. A car gives you freedom and a sense of security - two experiences all of us really crave right now.

But who knows what the future will bring?

The auto industry is entering uncharted waters and the companies that plot their way carefully will obviously be in a better position to succeed.

So how do you guarantee success, even during uncertain times? I’ve been asked this question a lot lately because Lexus is fortunate to have been successful over the last 12 years.

I tell people that, on the surface, there are three easy answers:
Great Dealers...
Great People...
And Great Products...

And if you were at Detroit, Frankfurt or Tokyo, I’m sure you saw a lot of great products. What a terrific time to be a consumer! EVERY manufacturer is making outstanding vehicles. And we know, by the way, because we regularly take them apart.

And these vehicles are sold by many great dealers. Our dealer network is very strong, but keep in mind that our dealers are typically successful mega-dealers who represent a variety of manufacturers.

At Lexus dealerships and throughout our organization, we have great people.

But nobody has a monopoly on talented people...you all have them.

So if we all have great products, great dealers and great peoplewhat more do you need to be successful in today’s environment?

We believe you need a unique strategy.

At Lexus, we have just that. Our strategy is... "Everybody Must Win."

And everybody MEANS EVERYBODY...suppliers...business partners...dealers and associates.

Now why would I share our strategy for success with YOU, our competitors?

Because if we all adopt the philosophy that "Everybody Must Win," our industry, and everyone in it, will benefit.

I know...it sounds counterintuitive to the competitive nature of our business. Our industry has traditionally been one of winners and losers. Manufacturers built cars and shipped them to dealers. Dealers, in turn, pushed the metal on to customers. And, as we know, these transactions sometimes produce one winner and one loser.

But that cycle should, and can, change.

This formula for success is created simply by making sure the manufacturer, all the business partners, all the customers and all the associates WIN.


At Lexus, this culture was literally etched in stone before we sold our first car.

In the atrium of our headquarters lobby we have a granite block inscribed with The Lexus Covenant.

Every associate has his or her signature etched into that same stone.

The Covenant reads, in part, "Lexus will do it RIGHT from the start and Lexus will treat each customer as we would a guest in our home."

At Lexus, by committing to the success of others, we create ADVOCATES not ADVERSARIES.

I have to say... every time I pick up Automotive News... I see another article about manufacturers squeezing suppliers. Or manufacturers complaining about dealers. Or dealers complaining about manufacturers.

How is that kind of controversy helping our industry? It’s not.

And while Lexus and Toyota are not perfect by any means, I am proud to say that our relationship with suppliers and dealers is much different. It’s all part of the Toyota Way that was established by our parent company, Toyota Motor Corporation.

Toyota has long believed that our suppliers are our business partners and if we make sure THEY win, WE win, as well.

For example, in 1992 Toyota established the Toyota Supplier Support Center, to help companies implement the vaunted Toyota Production System. Now, it’s not just our suppliers that have benefited. Our Support Center has worked with suppliers for our competition, as well.

Toyota believes that squeezing cost out of a part sometimes squeezes the quality out of it, too.

So, we try to ENGAGE our suppliers, not ENRAGE them.

Let me give you an example...

Garden State Tanning in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, supplies the leather in many Lexus vehicles. When we started working with them, they had a 90-day inventory of materials. Our experts helped them implement Toyota’s Lean Production System, reducing their inventory to just 4 days, dramatically slashing costs and increasing productivity.

According to Garden State’s President, his employees recognize and appreciate Toyota’s commitment to their success.

As a result, they are very loyal and have become advocates for our company.

This relationship with our suppliers carries over to our other business relationships, as well. Take the marketing partnerships we have with Coach Leather and Mark Levinson Audio.

We have partnered with Coach, which produces some of the finest leather products in the world, to build special edition vehicles.

And our relationship with Mark Levinson began last year with the re-design of our flagship LS 430.

Mark Levinson develops high-end home audio systems that can cost in excess of 100-thousand dollars.

Coordinating the physical details with Levinson and Coach was only the beginning. We also developed marketing campaigns that not only promoted our vehicles, but also increased awareness for the Coach and Mark Levinson brands.

Here are two commercials that highlight these co-branding efforts:

-- VIDEO OF COACH AND LEVINSON COMMERCIALS --

While our suppliers and marketing partners are important business relationships, from the Lexus point of view, our most important relationship is with our dealers.

We treat them as FULL business partners. We go out of our way to communicate with them...listen to their concerns... and respond to their needs to ensure their ongoing success and profitability.

In fact, dealership profitability is one of our TOP priorities.

Let me share some examples with you:

Following the terrorist attacks, it was clear there was no such thing as "business as usual." We asked our dealers what we could do to ensure their continued success.

They were concerned that if sales dropped, they would have too many cars on their lots. So we immediately went back to our manufacturing plants to restructure our distribution pipeline to maintain a low day supply of vehicles.

This adjustment helped our dealers achieve a steady flow of cars and SUVs to continue to offer a wide selection to customers, but not so many as to lose the exclusivity that is so important to our brand.

Another concern our dealers had was traveling to Miami for our National Dealer Meeting, scheduled for October 1.

Many of them, facing uncertain times, didn’t want to be too far from their families and dealerships.

We responded.

We scratched Miami and decided to meet with our dealers face-to-face to assure them of our commitment to their success in this challenging marketplace.

This involved forming three teams of executives and doing a road show to 15 cities in 10 days.

When it was over...I was exhausted...but I was also elated.

I can’t begin to tell you how many dealers came up to me, shook my hand, and thanked me for the tremendous effort that Lexus made in coming to them.

We know that our dealers are more committed to their Lexus business because of our efforts and our relationships with them. And...we know...that because we helped THEM win...they’ll continue to help US be successful, too.

I have a favorite saying about our relationship with our dealers.

We know that our dealers know ...and they know ...that at Lexus, we listen.

The bottom line is that we want our dealers to win...and to be very, very profitable. They know it. They believe it.

That’s probably the main reason why Lexus dealers have consistently ranked us at the top of the NADA Dealer Attitude Survey. In the most recent one, Lexus placed FIRST in EVERY category.

Because they know that Lexus wants them to win, and to be profitable, our dealers have become our advocates and are more likely to invest their time, their money and their effort into their Lexus business.

In fact, that’s already happening. Our 195 Lexus dealers have committed to invest an amazing 400 million dollars to expand and improve their facilities just this year and next.

That’s a huge commitment to the brand and its future.

But even more impressive is their unbelievable and ongoing commitment to our customers.

Certainly, if you look at the J.D. Power and Associates Customer Satisfaction Index, we’re thrilled that Lexus has finished first 10 of the last 11 years.

Now, every manufacturer has stories about customers who love their brand.

They should have great stories. Customers get treated better now by all of us than they ever have before and the bar just keeps rising higher and higher.

But one story about the impact a Lexus dealer had on one family’s life stands out to me.

Let me share it with you:

Mark and Lisa McDevitt, of Plano, Texas, were rushing to the hospital to deliver their third child, but they realized the baby wasn’t going to wait, so they pulled their Lexus into the dealership.

Assisted by a 911 operator, Mark delivered their baby girl in the front seat and soon an ambulance arrived to take mother and child to the hospital. As you can imagine, the vehicle was a little...messy. So the dealership gave Mark a loaner car while they steam cleaned his SUV.

A few days later, the proud mother and father returned with their new baby to pick up their vehicle and thank the people who had supported the birth.

Oh, and the name of the baby? Isabella ALEXUS McDevitt.

A year later, the family is still grateful. They celebrated Isabella’s first birthday with the staff at Park Place Lexus. Here’s a clip:


--VIDEO OF WFAA-TV REPORT--

How will companies continue to generate loyal customers as the bar moves ever higher? The key lies in your people.

As Frederick Reichheld, the author of Loyalty Rules! recently wrote, "I have yet to encounter a company that has achieved extremely high customer loyalty without fostering" similar high loyalty among its associates.

And how do you foster that high loyalty?

That’s right...you make sure they win.

Like every manufacturer, we conduct elaborate training programs around the country for product launches.

The difference is...we invite EVERYBODY to attend. Not only do Dealer Principals and sales staff come, but also receptionists and even lot boys.

From our headquarters, our executives attend, as well as our managers and our administrative assistants.

At the seminars, we impart a great deal of knowledge to help our associates understand the technology and advantages of the product. But we also instill the "spirit" of the Lexus Covenant, which inspires people to exceed customers’ expectations.

Our dealers appreciate these seminars so much, they are willing to foot the bill -- both in time and travel -- to have ALL their employees attend.

Because everybody goes, everybody wins.

For the future, our challenge is to continue to make sure our associates, our business partners, our dealers and our customers are always successful.

Now success can be the enemy of change and success can give rise to a self-satisfaction that inhibits motivation to innovate and change.

Especially if we sit on our laurels and let the focus shift to meeting our own needs...instead of making sure all those around us are winners.

So there you have it.

Although the immediate future for the automotive industry is hazy, there’s one thing that’s clear.

This isn’t like a reality TV show where the goal is to vote each other off the island until there is one winner.

By building strong relationships and making certain everybody wins...dealers... business partners...associates...and customers, manufacturers really ensure their own success.

Thank you.

Now I’ll open it up to questions....

highmiles

Nice job Sick.

I think that VDIM is just one (maybe the most important) of the many technological breakthroughs in the 06 GS. Let the guys who write magazine comparisons perceive the GS as a non-sport offering that doesn't measure up.

Those of us that share the Lexus vision and drive these wonderful cars know that we can push these cars as hard as we want (and in your case you already have) with the confidence that we don't have wonder where the outside of the envelope is.

looknow12

We've got a lot of back roads here in New England and I've been pushing our GS430 as hard as I can. VDIM improves traction and handling period. It does things no professional driver could ever. By having individual braking control to help a car around a turn how can anyone say they can replicate that manually?

Many reviews have talked about getting the 430 out on a wet tarmac and how it made the tighest arc. It's doing this using the subtle interventions.

I was against a BMW 5 at a traffic light on a rainy day. Many roads are very slick, this section was definitely slicker than most. Full straight acceleration would have had any traction control car waiting for the nanny to give in (delaying 2-3 seconds). Non traction control cars would have been spinning (delaying 2-4 seconds). But not the GS, it lunged forward smoothly transferring power between the rear wheels and quickly adjusting steering to prevent the favoring of one wheel due to uneven weight distribution.

I was getting on a highway and just before the apex turn of ramp during another wet day. I pushed to full throttle causing the GS to shift down, the power was felt by the rear and for a msec, the rear began to swing, before things could get lateral, VDIM adjusted the steering slightly, the front right brake (I was in a left turn) was dampened and the GS continued without any loss in engine performance and carried itself out of the turn. I fail to see how any sports car could have powered out of that turn better considering the poor circumstances I layed out for the GS.

I have taken turns as hard as I possibly could, and the GS has never faultered.

The reviewers need to begin the actual testing and start producing actual comparison numbers, then I'll be satisfied. As far as I can tell, we have yet to hear one specific review on the GS430. I don't want to hear about the Car and Driver writer who was given that assigment against his will. He showed no specifics of any tests he did except his own "feeling" of a lack of passion. Maybe he's too uptight and needs a week at a Vegas ranch :-)

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Good info, thanks. I think the bigger issues for the GS are limited wheels/tires and still a long travel on the suspension which makes for more body roll or 'hop' which makes the VDIM have to work even harder. I'm interested to hear about the first 06 GS on coilovers, but the problem is how to do that on a GS430 that has variable damper control already.

Rockville

do so. Sometimes when in a medium radius curve like an exit ramp if there is some pavement changes a stiff suspension will jump sideways and hop when it loses contact. The GS430 suspension doesn't lose contact and definitely doesn't hop. If you want to put more aggressive tires on it and stiffen the suspension you will soon have many TRD parts to choose from. The VDIM is able to improve your driving prowess at whatever level it is now when things get extreme. The writers who are afraid of the system have unfairly dismissed it as an intrusion on their driving sensibility. That couldn't be farther from the truth. In wet conditions it will enable a driver to literally drive circles around any RWD without VDIM. Does anyone want to get rid of ABS? That is the Great Grandfather of VDIM......

speedflex

There seems to be a misconception here that the M sedans do not have stability and accident avoidance tech of thier own. This is untrue.

The Lexus site says of the GS:
The GS*430's breakthrough Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management (VDIM) [3] system employs eight safety features to control loss of traction during a turn. When a series of sensors detect a loss of traction, the system uses a combination of individual wheel braking, throttle activation and steering assistance to help the driver keep the vehicle on track. The GS*300 also is equipped with Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) [5] and Traction Control (TRAC) systems. If the vehicle skids during a turn, VSC applies the appropriate brake individually and reduces engine power to help place you back on the right path.

The Infiniti site says of the M
The Infiniti M's VDC* uses an array of sensors to determine your steered path and help keep you in control and out of harm's way. If the vehicle begins to understeer (plow forward) or oversteer (fishtail), VDC can apply appropriate brake pressure to individual wheels and/or reduce engine output to help you hold to the steered path. The Infiniti Traction Control System senses wheelspin and automatically reduces engine output to the slipping wheel(s) to help give you a surer foothold under acceleration.

In emergency braking situations, many drivers don't brake hard enough, soon enough. Brake Assist monitors how you apply the brakes, and sensing emergency braking, actually helps apply maximum brake force for potentially shorter stops. Add the available Preview* function and the system uses the Intelligent Cruise Control laser sensors to detect vehicles ahead. If it senses a rapidly slowing vehicle ahead of you in the same lane, it automatically pre-pressurizes the braking system in anticipation of emergency braking and can improve response to sudden driver input.

This is basically an equivalent technology and makes the M just as safe in emergency and slip situations as the GS. The idea that the GS is safe and secure in bad conditions and that the M is all out-of-control horsepower is absolutely myth.