Car and Driver $55K sedan comparo: 1) M45, 2) RL, 3) GS430, 4) E350, 5) A6, 6) 530i
03-24-05, 10:38 AM
#76
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Originally Posted by flipside909
There's a valid arguement here. C&D's numbers never really cohere with their assessments which is why everyone questions how they assess their rankings which is why everyone can only sit back and wonder. Sure C&D favors a certain style of vehicle, but that's their assessment and style.. Is that what all non-lexus owners that come here complain about when then read stuff in a specific genre forum? It's only obvious you're in a Lexus forum...expect the bias, don't be suprised it's getting old and there's nothing new about it. I find it funny those who love C&D and only believe in what they write, it's not the definitive in automotive journalism. It's almost ignorant in a way. Get over it. 
), but I think it's funny when people cry about rankings that don't matter. Case in point: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=35142. Check the thread out, it's also pretty humorous.Anyway, whatever. Carry on.
03-24-05, 10:58 AM
#77
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Originally Posted by kreilly
I think there's little doubt these days that horsepower sells.
03-24-05, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by flipside909
If that's the case, why didn't the 1st gen M45 do well compared to the GS430...for the same years? If HP really sells, why did the LS430 outsell the Q45 being that the LS only has 290 and the Q having 345?
03-24-05, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
I agree ... this is all rather strange. Reading the "lows" for the GS ... too much sensory deprivation ... almost too subtle for the "talking primates" buying cars 
. I'm sorry, but that comment right there practically generalizes and ridicules car buyers as primitive, stupid cavemen ... 
to Car and Driver ... for insulting not only their readers, but car drivers in general.
Now, it's quite obvious that Car & Driver disagrees with atmosphere and the design philosophy for Lexus/Toyota cars. Car & Driver consistenly favours cars that are low price, high performance, and feel "aggressive". Car & Driver rarely places importance on ride comfort, fuel economy, how smooth or quiet the car is, or the car's atmosphere. When I read a car mag comparison, I expect a much more well rounded and more in depth review, covering every aspect of the car, not just sport or performance. This is especially considering the fact that car mag journalists and editors are "professionals", yet some of their reviews seem to have no reasoning or logic, at least when making overall comparisons. I would really love to see Car and Driver advertise they are about sport and performance specifically. I personally feel Car and Driver does not have an objective basis on which to review luxury cars, or highly refined cars, since you rarely see that play any significance in thier reviews or comparisons.
On that note ... now, I've sat in both the GS and the RL ... and examined both in fair detail. Granted, I haven't driven either of them, but even without driving the cars, this comparison seems awfully fishy to me ... as several other C & D comparisons have in the past. Now, I don't even pay too much attention to mag comparisons and reviews, but it's still mind boggling as to exactly HOW the RL got 2nd place?
Personally, I would not give the RL higher ergonomics than the GS, as the comparison did. To me, the GS interior and ergonomics seemed to be very intuitive, and everything seemed well thought out. On the RL, the centre dash and the console with the myriad of buttons is not exactly something I would call ergonomic. I also personally found the GS seats to be more comfortable than the RL, but that may be subjective. In regards to fit and finish as well, I disagree with giving the RL a higher score than the GS. Granted, the RL does have a great fit and finish .... but I wasn't particularly impressed or intrigued by it. With the GS, although the interior may seem more barren or simple, I still felt that the fit and finish were impeccable, and I really love how the centre area seems to flow or almost morph out of the dash ... where as the RL console seems "tacked on", like the M45, which I tend to dislike. On touch and feel, the GS interior felt to be of slighly higher quality than the RL, at least to me.
Exterior styling is subjective, but I still find it funny that the RL tied the GS in styling.
The biggest mystery to me is how the RL got a higher score on "performance" than the GS. Yes the RL may be heavier than the GS, but in return in has AWD, which the GS does not. The GS handles at least as well as the RL, and I reckon better to be honest. More importantly, the GS has considerably more performance than the RL, no matter how you slice it. There is just no way the RL's V6 is in any way more powerful than the Lexus V8. If Car and Driver made this comparison based on feel, or some vague, obscure judgement, here's another to C & D.
In short, this article changes nothing for me. It was clear the M45 would win this, and I did not doubt that. Ironically, I was not surprised to see the RL beating the GS, as this seems to be a C & D pattern. My only surprise was the BMW 5 scoring so low.
... almost too subtle for the "talking primates" buying cars . I'm sorry, but that comment right there practically generalizes and ridicules car buyers as primitive, stupid cavemen ... to Car and Driver ... for insulting not only their readers, but car drivers in general. Now, it's quite obvious that Car & Driver disagrees with atmosphere and the design philosophy for Lexus/Toyota cars. Car & Driver consistenly favours cars that are low price, high performance, and feel "aggressive". Car & Driver rarely places importance on ride comfort, fuel economy, how smooth or quiet the car is, or the car's atmosphere. When I read a car mag comparison, I expect a much more well rounded and more in depth review, covering every aspect of the car, not just sport or performance. This is especially considering the fact that car mag journalists and editors are "professionals", yet some of their reviews seem to have no reasoning or logic, at least when making overall comparisons. I would really love to see Car and Driver advertise they are about sport and performance specifically. I personally feel Car and Driver does not have an objective basis on which to review luxury cars, or highly refined cars, since you rarely see that play any significance in thier reviews or comparisons.
On that note ... now, I've sat in both the GS and the RL ... and examined both in fair detail. Granted, I haven't driven either of them, but even without driving the cars, this comparison seems awfully fishy to me ... as several other C & D comparisons have in the past. Now, I don't even pay too much attention to mag comparisons and reviews, but it's still mind boggling as to exactly HOW the RL got 2nd place?
Personally, I would not give the RL higher ergonomics than the GS, as the comparison did. To me, the GS interior and ergonomics seemed to be very intuitive, and everything seemed well thought out. On the RL, the centre dash and the console with the myriad of buttons is not exactly something I would call ergonomic. I also personally found the GS seats to be more comfortable than the RL, but that may be subjective. In regards to fit and finish as well, I disagree with giving the RL a higher score than the GS. Granted, the RL does have a great fit and finish .... but I wasn't particularly impressed or intrigued by it. With the GS, although the interior may seem more barren or simple, I still felt that the fit and finish were impeccable, and I really love how the centre area seems to flow or almost morph out of the dash ... where as the RL console seems "tacked on", like the M45, which I tend to dislike. On touch and feel, the GS interior felt to be of slighly higher quality than the RL, at least to me.
Exterior styling is subjective, but I still find it funny that the RL tied the GS in styling.
The biggest mystery to me is how the RL got a higher score on "performance" than the GS. Yes the RL may be heavier than the GS, but in return in has AWD, which the GS does not. The GS handles at least as well as the RL, and I reckon better to be honest. More importantly, the GS has considerably more performance than the RL, no matter how you slice it. There is just no way the RL's V6 is in any way more powerful than the Lexus V8. If Car and Driver made this comparison based on feel, or some vague, obscure judgement, here's another
to C & D. In short, this article changes nothing for me. It was clear the M45 would win this, and I did not doubt that. Ironically, I was not surprised to see the RL beating the GS, as this seems to be a C & D pattern. My only surprise was the BMW 5 scoring so low.
In one paragraph, you say you haven't driven either of them.
Then in another, you say you are pretty sure the GS handles better than the RL.
03-24-05, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by psteng19
Because looks supercede power and those 2 Infiniti's were ugly.
The point is that there is now more well rounded competition (power + good looks & refinement). For these prices you should be able to expect that.
03-24-05, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kreilly
you'll notice that all the extra advertised hp didn't add up to much of a performance advantage on the road.
03-24-05, 12:15 PM
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Car and Driver - Skewed review
As mentioned by everybody, this comparo was based on MSRP ($55K) and not engine type.
Regardless of the V8's from one company and V6's from another, The comparo showed a few things.
1. German cars are no longer the top "dogs".
2. Infiniti and Lexus V8's luxury sedans are fast, nimble and can easily hold their own against their German counterparts (545i, E500). Sorry Audi, you don't count in this one.
3. If Acura can hold its own in this comparo (even if C/D might be Honda/Acura biased), Acura's RL has to be the best AWD Midsize Luxury Sedan.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Regardless of the V8's from one company and V6's from another, The comparo showed a few things.
1. German cars are no longer the top "dogs".
2. Infiniti and Lexus V8's luxury sedans are fast, nimble and can easily hold their own against their German counterparts (545i, E500). Sorry Audi, you don't count in this one.
3. If Acura can hold its own in this comparo (even if C/D might be Honda/Acura biased), Acura's RL has to be the best AWD Midsize Luxury Sedan.
Nothing more, nothing less.
03-24-05, 12:28 PM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by jwaters
Exactly! For the 35hp advantage the M45 has over the GS430 it only translates into .2 second quicker 0-60 time, 30-50 passing time & 50-70 passing time. Not enough of a difference to really notice in day to day driving and nowhere near being enough to label the GS430 underpowered.
Last edited by XeroK00L; 03-24-05 at 12:49 PM.
03-24-05, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jwaters
Exactly! For the 35hp advantage the M45 has over the GS430 it only translates into .2 second quicker 0-60 time, 30-50 passing time & 50-70 passing time. Not enough of a difference to really notice in day to day driving and nowhere near being enough to label the GS430 underpowered.
A new 4.6 liter DI V-8 with 350+hp would be a welcome addition and render this whole discussion moot. And the 300 needs the 3.5 liter from the IS.
03-24-05, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by static808
2. Infiniti and Lexus V8's luxury sedans are fast, nimble and can easily hold their own against their German counterparts (545i, E500). Sorry Audi, you don't count in this one.
03-24-05, 02:09 PM
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numbers game
i think some of the public has become skewed with numbers. We always want more horsepower and more reliability, we want more options and spend less money. I don't believe that the gs should be 3rd, and i am not being bias, I know what cars do for me, and i know what I like. I have sat inside every car on the test, and i am not shocked By the outcome of the magazine. Nissan has been up to alot of things lately, and Lexus seems to be sticking to its guns and somewhat "old school" metality. Lexus should be making leaps and bounds over the other makers. If you sit in a new rl, m45 and other cars on the list, i know which one is more appealing to me, and its a new gs. I mean I looked at the m45, and iwas just kinda like...nah...and to be honest, the rest were rather boring.
03-24-05, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fireballs gs400
If you sit in a new rl, m45 and other cars on the list, i know which one is more appealing to me....
03-24-05, 10:25 PM
#89
Lane Change vs. Slalom
Is anyone else surprised that the C/D test showed the GS430 so far behind the M45 in the "lane change" maneuver? If you refer to the comparison that Edmunds/Inside Line did (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...8/pageId=62812) the M45 and GS430 had identical 600ft-slalom results. So why would the GS430 lag so far behind on the "lane change"? I'm assuming that a "lane change" is like a chicane. If this isn't right - what is this maneuver?? I would think that a slalom would be a better measurement of sustained maneuverability. So unless I'm missing something I'm very surprised and skeptical about this result that C/D produced.
The skidpad results were quite good for the GS430. Much better than the BMW. However, this measurement is as much about the tires as it is about the car's suspension.
I was surprised that the GS430 didn't have a stronger braking performance. For all of the hype about the special brakes that need to be replaced every year, etc, I would have thought that the braking would have been world class. I don't think that braking gets the attention it should since it can save a life or prevent an accident. I can make a lot of excuses for Lexus not trying to win the HP war but I find it harder to excuse not trying to give us the best brake performance available. This too may have a bit to do with the tires but I wish the braking performance was better.
I like how much more quiet the GS430 is than the competition. Does this matter to anyone else? I may spend 6 seconds going to 60, but when I spend 6 hours behind the wheel I like to be insulated from road, wind and engine noise. Remember the noise is measured in decibels and decibels is not a linear scale - it is logarhithmic scale. Every 3dB reduction of noise is like a 50% reduction.
Overall, I agree with those that have said that this is a pretty good group of cars. I also agree with those who said that the most useful parts of these comparisons are the raw numbers. Let me make the subjective analysis for myself and C/D can keep their silly points! I understand that this sells magazines but it doesn't influence the way I think.
The skidpad results were quite good for the GS430. Much better than the BMW. However, this measurement is as much about the tires as it is about the car's suspension.
I was surprised that the GS430 didn't have a stronger braking performance. For all of the hype about the special brakes that need to be replaced every year, etc, I would have thought that the braking would have been world class. I don't think that braking gets the attention it should since it can save a life or prevent an accident. I can make a lot of excuses for Lexus not trying to win the HP war but I find it harder to excuse not trying to give us the best brake performance available. This too may have a bit to do with the tires but I wish the braking performance was better.
I like how much more quiet the GS430 is than the competition. Does this matter to anyone else? I may spend 6 seconds going to 60, but when I spend 6 hours behind the wheel I like to be insulated from road, wind and engine noise. Remember the noise is measured in decibels and decibels is not a linear scale - it is logarhithmic scale. Every 3dB reduction of noise is like a 50% reduction.
Overall, I agree with those that have said that this is a pretty good group of cars. I also agree with those who said that the most useful parts of these comparisons are the raw numbers. Let me make the subjective analysis for myself and C/D can keep their silly points!
I understand that this sells magazines but it doesn't influence the way I think.
03-25-05, 12:48 PM
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I think that C&D got the exact results they were looking for. Why do you suppose they placed the artifical $55K limit? Could this be because it would exclude a fully loaded GS 430 ($62K) and more qualified offerings from MB and BMW?
It is clear to me that the only two competitive cars that are fully loaded for under $55K are the M45 and Acura. All of the other major players in this segment the GS, BMW and MB have to submit cars without all options in the case of the GS or smaller engines in the case of the BMW and MB.
Granted the M45 deserves it's just rewards and from everything I have read is more of a "driver's" car than the GS and no surprise it would beat the GS. However, to me the $55K limit was designed to prop up the Acura to make it appear to be a real player in this market. I think the real test should be between stock V8's in this segment regardless of price (excluding the AMG and M5). But that would have left Acura out in the cold. Something that C&D couldn't do.
I'll be the first to admit that I did not test drive every car in this market when I bought my 06 GS430. My loyalty to Lexus was just too great for me to imagine owning anything else. I did however sit in the M45 and Acura at car shows. I was impressed with the M45 on the outside but could never spend that kind of money on a car that looks as goofy IMO on the inside as the M45. The Acura just felt like a Honda on HGH (IMO) and I definately couldn't see spending that kind of money on a Honda.
As we all know this segment of the car market has heated up this year like no other time in history. It wasn't long ago that the only choices were BMW and MB for a mid range sports sedan (no slam against the GS as I own a 98 GS400). Now every car maker is offering something to address this high dollar high profit market.
I guess my point is that competition in this market will mean that we will see more defacto head-to-head articles that will not make sense to many of us on CL. With this much money at stake there are adgendas that outweigh the need for objectivity. The C&D article is a perfect case in point.
06 GS430
Flint
Ash
Loaded
98 GS400
Silver
318,000 Miles
(for sale and won't be mine for long)
Previous Lexus
92 ES300
185K miles
(traded in on my 98GS)
It is clear to me that the only two competitive cars that are fully loaded for under $55K are the M45 and Acura. All of the other major players in this segment the GS, BMW and MB have to submit cars without all options in the case of the GS or smaller engines in the case of the BMW and MB.
Granted the M45 deserves it's just rewards and from everything I have read is more of a "driver's" car than the GS and no surprise it would beat the GS. However, to me the $55K limit was designed to prop up the Acura to make it appear to be a real player in this market. I think the real test should be between stock V8's in this segment regardless of price (excluding the AMG and M5). But that would have left Acura out in the cold. Something that C&D couldn't do.
I'll be the first to admit that I did not test drive every car in this market when I bought my 06 GS430. My loyalty to Lexus was just too great for me to imagine owning anything else. I did however sit in the M45 and Acura at car shows. I was impressed with the M45 on the outside but could never spend that kind of money on a car that looks as goofy IMO on the inside as the M45. The Acura just felt like a Honda on HGH (IMO) and I definately couldn't see spending that kind of money on a Honda.
As we all know this segment of the car market has heated up this year like no other time in history. It wasn't long ago that the only choices were BMW and MB for a mid range sports sedan (no slam against the GS as I own a 98 GS400). Now every car maker is offering something to address this high dollar high profit market.
I guess my point is that competition in this market will mean that we will see more defacto head-to-head articles that will not make sense to many of us on CL. With this much money at stake there are adgendas that outweigh the need for objectivity. The C&D article is a perfect case in point.
06 GS430
Flint
Ash
Loaded
98 GS400
Silver
318,000 Miles
(for sale and won't be mine for long)
Previous Lexus
92 ES300
185K miles
(traded in on my 98GS)
