Rothschild

Hello,

I'd like to say that these forums are great. I have been researching trading in my 10 year old Honda Civic for a new (to me) car. My civic has been amazingly reliable and I am now seriously considering an ES350 for the same reason. I just want a trouble-free car that will ideally last me another 10 years or more. I have only bought one car (my civic) and I bought that as a new car, so I have no experience buying used or CPO cars.

My question is, does anyone have any tips on buying a used ES350? I am definitely leaning toward the CPO program and I would like a car that has only had 1 previous owner (although I don't have any evidence that that really matters). If anyone has any tips or tricks that will help me get the best deal or get the most for my money I would really appreciate it.

Right now, I am thinking about a 2012 model, but I don't know whether I want the 5th or 6th gen model - my suspicion is that I probably prefer a 5th gen but I don't have a good basis for that. Thank you in advance!

PS I also cross posted this to the 5th gen forum.

lesz

The thing that I'd suggest is to seriously evaluate whether it is really worth the premium that you would be paying for a CPO vehicle. The ES is a very dependable vehicle, and, even without CPO designation, the remainder of the bumper-to-bumper and drive train warranties still transfer to the new owner.

If you do buy a CPO ES, you are likely to be paying about a $2000-2500 premium for the CPO warranty. If I found a CPO vehicle that I really wanted, I think I'd start by negotiating the best price that I could for it. Then, I'd attempt tell the sales person that I wasn't really interested in the CPO warranty, and I'd make an offer about $2000-2500 lower than the price that I'd already negotiated to buy the vehicle without CPO designation.

My previous ES was one that I bought used. When I bought it, it had about 38,000 miles on it. When I traded it 5 years later, it had about 110.000 miles on it, and, other than maintenance like oil changes and tire rotations, the only other money that I had to put into it was for new tires and new brakes, neither of which would have been covered by a CPO warranty. Again, these are very dependable vehicles.

dchar

Even though you'll be paying a premium for a CPO car, it'll give you the peace of mind needed when owning a used car. These cars are very reliable and you can check service records (type in VIN at drivers.lexus.com), but you can't be sure how the previous owner treated the car. So having a warranty up to 100K miles can help just in case something decides to go bang clatter clatter clatter after 50K miles (most likely not, but who knows).

Also, there hasn't been that many generations of ES (only 3), so just in case you're not sure about the difference between 2012 and 2013+, here's a little bit about it.

2012:
-Based on Toyota Camry
-Shorter wheelbase
-Touchscreen interface

2013+:
-Based on Toyota Avalon
-Longer wheelbase, more rear legroom
-**** (non-Nav) or Remote Touch (Nav) interface

If I were in your shoes, I would go for the newer one. It won't feel like an "old car" (styling and tech) and it's just as reliable since it uses the same engine.

Zfrog

I like private party purchases, but just make sure you do a pre-purchase inspection with your mechanic/local dealer

lesz

The current ES is, in fact, the 6th generation ES.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_ES

s9211

I'm interested in everyone's responses too as I'm in the same boat.

Arty101

CPO will definitely give you peace of mind, and may be worth the cost for any vehicle approaching its original warranty time. The CPO will extend warranty to 100K and 3 more years.

bc6152

I was surprised to learn that the CPO warranty is identical to the new car warranty in that it covers the entire car for an extended three years or up to 100k miles. Not a bad deal.

lesz

But that CPO warranty is also one of the especially high mark-up items on which dealers make extraordinary profits. CPO designation fits into the same general category as extended warranties and dealer installed options with regard to the level of profit for the dealership. Just like a dealer only pays a small percentage of what it charges the customer for an extended warranty, when a vehicle is designated as a CPO vehicle, it only costs the dealer a small fraction of the $2500 or so that the customer will be paying for that CPO designation.

The reason why both Lexus and the dealership want to designate as many used vehicles as possible as CPO vehicles is because they both know that it is very unlikely that any of those vehicles are going, during the warranty period, to have need for any covered repairs that comes even close to the CPO mark-up.

While it is certainly possible that a car buyer could incur a major repair and have to pay out of pocket more than $2500, the chances of that happening are especially small, and if, say, you were to buy 3 non-CPO vehicles over the next 10 years, the odds are overwhelming that you would be thousands of dollars ahead of where you would be had you bought 3 CPO vehicles during that same time because the $7500 that you would have saved by skipping CPO status would, with very, very rare exceptions, by far exceed any repairs that you would likely have to pay out of your own pocket.

"Peace of mind" is a catch phrase that those who sell extended warranties and protection plans on $300 TV sets want us all to latch onto because those who are willing to buy that peace of mind are the ones who are generating the biggest amount of revenue for those selling the extended warranties and protection plans.

Also note that, while the 4 years and 100,000 total mile coverage for Lexus CPO vehicles sounds impressive, it really isn't nearly as much as it, at first, seems to be. The new vehicle bumper-to-bumper coverage, which transfers to a new owner, is for 50,000 miles and 4 years. So, the CPO warranty is going to cover you only for 50,000 additional miles and , say, 2 additional years if you buy, for example, a 2 year old CPO vehicle. Plus, the new vehicle power train warranty covers the vehicle for 6 years and 70,000 miles. Any repairs exceeding the approximately $2500 CPO price premium are likely to have already been covered by the power train warranty, and, by the time that power train warranty expires, it is likely that the 4 year CPO warranty will also have expired or be close to expiring. Further, if you are talking about an ES 300h, the hybrid system is covered in the new car warranty for 8 years or 100,000 miles. Thus, the additional "peace of mind" that comes from the CPO warranty isn't nearly as great as it might, at first, seem to be.

Riles

Agreed. If this were a Mercedes, Land Rover, or some other brand known for poor reliability, you might want to consider the warranty. But why pay an extra $2k for a couple more years of warranty on a very reliable car?

I don't have the figures, but I'd imagine that the warranty is a losing bet in 90+% of the Lexus purchases. Even though Lexus parts are expensive, it still takes some pretty serious problems to require that much in repairs. The time value of money times the expected likelihood of needing repairs makes the CPO program on a reliable car one of the worst deals in the automotive industry.

You could also just buy a private party car and buy an aftermarket warranty. The warranty would cost roughly the same, but you will pay thousands less for the car itself since it won't have a dealer markup.

CPOs are for people who don't have the time or patience to buy private party. This is not an insult- there are many people, especially those who can afford a luxury car, who are tighter on time than on money. So no offense meant by that. But if you have the time, you are really much better off buying private party.

mspearl95

regarding 5th vs 6th gen-

I originally traded in my 1997 LS400 for a 2011 ES350. I had the 2011 about 6 months, then after receiving a 2013 loaner while my car was in for service, I decided to trade my 2011 in. The latest gen(to me) seems to feel much more stable on the road than the previous, and interior/exterior design is much more appealing.

s9211

Any suggestions on best places to buy private party? I know someone had mentioned AutoTrader.com. Are there any others?

Riles

I like autotrader, but I also tend to use Cars.com a lot because they have a good mix of dealer and private party inventory all in the same place. I also check craigslist when I'm in the market although a newer ES350/300h is pretty rare to see on Craigslist.

Now that we're getting into model year 2016, there should start to be lots of 2013 ES350's coming off lease. Many of them go to Lexus dealers, but quite a few go to those smaller dealers specializing only in off-lease cars. Our other car is a Mercedes and we picked it up from an off-lease dealer in NJ for roughly what you pay for a private party sale. I like off-lease cars because they are usually priced well and have relatively low miles.

s9211

Thanks for the info!


That is exactly my thought. Since the 2016 is refreshed, I have a feeling that the 2013+ will be available for a better price.

PirelliRC

I think its a first in history that a Rothschild is driving a Civic.

Can we address you as your Lordship