coach1

This is what Lexus agreed to replace....driver's back only. They would not even address under the leg/knee area. My premium package was one down from top of the line....so what ever leather that was. As a reminder....this is after 5K miles.

lesz

I had intended, in my previous post, to mention that it is apparent from the pictures posted that some, at least, of those with the issue have used some sort of leather treatment on the seats. The glossy look of the leather in the photos is the result of some leather treatment products, and it is a different look from the look of the leather if it has not had a treatment product applied to it. Depending on the ingredients of the product used, especially if the product contains silicone or a silicone base, it would not surprise me if there was a connection between the problem and products used to condition the leather.


As an aside, I've learned that, for me, the downside of reading on internet forums is that, because those with problems with a product, even if it is a very rare problem that only affects a small number of those who own the product, are more likely to post on internet forums, I end up becoming paranoid and worrying about the likelihood that I will start seeing the same problem, even if the chances of the problem developing are very small. For example, I've had my Lexus GX for 9 years. From reading on the GX forum, I would think that my vehicle should have, well before now, had many problems, including a cracked dashboard, a leaking radiator, brake rotors seizing, failed rear suspension, and many others. Yet, with that vehicle, the only money that I've put into it beyond routine maintenance has been about $200 to repair a leak in the AC line. But, once I became aware of issues that (a few) others have had, I have found myself constantly looking for and expecting to see those other issues.

Yes, the crease in the leather is a different issue from the problem that others in this thread have had. I'm not sure that a crease in any leather is all that abnormal. Even the finest leathers available will develop creases over time if the leather bunches up as weight is put on it. There are creases that have developed in the (expensive) semi-aniline furniture that I have in my home, and I think of them as adding character to the look of the furniture.

Also, for the problem that others in the thread have been concerned with, I'm not sure any connection between the problem and the seat heaters has been established beyond the level of speculation as possibly being related.

coach1

In my case....NO leather treatment of any kind has been used....only the occasional damp cloth....and usually on the seat not the back.

Canesguy

Yeah, I think the problem seems to be a deeper issue (eg. padding) with the seats.

lesz

I preface this by saying that, like everyone else, I don't know what is causing the problem, but I am attempting to speculate with what makes sense to me.

That said, while I don't completely dismiss that there is a problem with the padding failing or deteriorating, I'm skeptical as to whether that is the cause of the problem. It would appear that there are gaps in padding to allow space for the seat ventilation, and it seems that the indentations in the seats are the result of the leather changing shape and conforming more than it should to those ventilation gaps in the padding. If the padding were somehow breaking down, I would expect to see the indentations where there is padding, not where there are gaps in the padding. I might think that there is some sort of issue related to poor design, but, if that were the case, I would think that, with all of the ES vehicles on the road and with all of the people on this board, we would be seeing more than a handful of people reporting the problem.

I wish that I could still look at the seats in the older ES that I no longer own and see if there is anything different in the design and padding placement of its ventilated seats from that of the seats in the current generation ES. It would also be interesting to know whether ventilated seats on other current generation Lexus models seem to have the same padding design/placement as does the ES.

It would also be interesting to know whether the vehicles that are showing the problem all came off of the same production run.

In any case, on the vehicles that do have the problem, it seems to me, again, that something is causing the leather to conform more than it should to the ventilation gaps in the padding. Perhaps, it is heat from the seat heaters. Perhaps, it is some product that has been used to condition the leather, and, perhaps, it is something else. At this point, I don't dismiss any of those possibilities, but I'm not convinced with certainty that any of them is the cause, either.

Max707

Only difference between the seats is the material. No reported problems with the Nuluxe or highend leather? I am sure others have the problem but are told by Lexus that it is normal
P.S. I've seen the same on AMG Mercedes ventilated seats.

lesz

Actually, what you are saying is not correct. One of those reporting the problem in this thread said that he/she had the U/L semi-aniline leather. Also, as I said in a previous post, because a much higher percentage of standard leather ES vehicles are sold compared to those with the semi-aniline leather, I would expect more reports of the problem with the standard leather than with the semi-aniline leather.

Further, there have to be differences in seat construction between the standard leather and the semi-aniline leather seats because the semi-aniline leather seats have the thigh support extension.

Also, with regard to the NuLuxe, I'm not sure that the absence of reports of problems so far is meaningful because, with the 2013 ES, ventilated seats with the perforated NuLuxe were not available. And, even with the 2014 ES, those with the ventilated NuLuxe are, I'm sure, only a small percentage of all ES vehicles sold. With the small number of reports of the problem and with the very small number of 2014 ventilated NuLuxe seat vehicles on the road so far, it is much less likely that we would have heard reports of any problems that might exist with them than it would be for the more numerous vehicles with leather seats.

At this point, we are still talking about a sample size of 6 or 7 people who have reported a problem. With that tiny sample size, it would be both foolish and misleading to come to any conclusions about how widespread the problem is or about which seat material is likely to be affected or not affected.

coach1

[QUOTE=lesz;8529742
At this point, we are still talking about a sample size of 6 or 7 people who have reported a problem. With that tiny sample size, it would be both foolish and misleading to come to any conclusions about how widespread the problem is or about which seat material is likely to be affected or not affected.[/QUOTE]

Go on e-bay and view used 2013 ES350's & you will see a high % of seats looking the same as mine/ours. You are putting way more thought into the issue than the folks at Lexus. It IS a design problem with the sub-construction of the seat....and the cavalier attitude from Lexus is unacceptable. I will find a solution....I might remind you, Lexus knows how to manufacture seats because the seats in the GS, LS are fine. We agree the perforated leather is not the problem, but what is behind.....a fan housing or large vent ports.....who knows....we do agree it looks like crap.

lesz

I just spent about 15 minutes doing what you asked/suggested. In the several dozen EBay listings for 2013 ES vehicles that I checked, I'm certainly not seeing what you are suggesting that I would see. In the pictures of the front seats of the vehicles, I see the majority of them looking like brand new. I see a good number of them showing what I would think of as varying stages of normal wear, and I see a few that look like they have had heavy wear, but what I don't see are ones where the seat bottoms show the clear indentations that are shown in the pictures posted by a couple of people in this thread.

I should also add that I know, as a photographer, that pictures taken with a flash or other strong artificial lighting are going to create shadows that make imperfections, like the seat indentations, look deeper than they actually are or how they would look in natural light.

I have no question that there are some who have real issues with the seats on their vehicles, but I'm far from being convinced that it is a problem that is apparent in more than a relatively small minority of vehicles, and the pictures in the EBay ads certainly don't help to make the case that the problem is a universal one. I'm sure that you can pick and choose to find examples of vehicles with the problem, but it certainly is not apparent in the pictures of most of the vehicles being sold on EBay.

I'd also suggest that trying to make the case to Lexus that there is a universal problem and using pictures of vehicles with normal seat wear to make the case is only helping Lexus to make the case that there is no problem. Instead of doing that, the focus should be on the smaller number of vehicles with seats that clearly show that there is a real problem beyond normal wear.

Max707

Don't think these guys want a recall, they just want their seats fixed by Lexus. Just like I got on my old SC400 when the drivers seat showed wear after a year of ownership. Lexus installed a new seat. Based on these owners posts that old Lexus that I remember that gave great customer service does not exisit they now sound like GM and call the problem normal.

coach1

lesz....first example that clearly shows the back of the driver's seat....scroll down to the middle of the listing to see close-up pictures of the interior and you will see that I'm talking about. No trick photography

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lexus-ES-REARVIEW-CAM-2013-LEXUS-ES350-PREMIUM-SUNROOF-NAV-CLIMATE-SEATS-14K-TEXAS-DIRECT-AUTO-/371057531422?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5664c09a1e&item=371057531422&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

coach1

It bothered me enough experiencing the toyota like quality of my ES that Lexus traded keys for a 2014 GS F-Sport. My cost was simply cost difference in the two cars with the original 10% discount....I essentially drove the ES 8,500 miles for a year and a half free. I will say there is no comparison between these cars other than similar looks. Some times you have to move on.

Lexusxoxo

Congrats on the GS.. Hope you have better luck with it.
It's a gorgeous car!

yardie876

Well that worked out quite nicely. Congrats!

Max707

Enjoy!! The GS F Sport is going to be fun to drive everyday. I looked at the GS, but in the final analysis I wanted the ES more luxury ride pLus the cost difference and the ES uses regular gas made me go with the ES. Now that I've owned the ES for 4k miles I feel I made the right choice for me. What I should of done was sell my LX470 and used the $$$ I spent on the ES and bought a low mileage CPOed LX570 since I really only need one vehicle. I might do that in 3 years.