SW17LS

One of the things I've always liked about the ES is that it feels like a much more expensive car than it is. When you drive other products in that price range the ES feels a segment above. Thats changing some, both because of Lexus' decontenting of some of the materials and features in the ES and because competitors are making better vehicles in that price segment than they use to...but its still a lot of car for the money.

Thats by design. One of the things auto journalists repeatedly say about the GS is that it feels like a much smaller car than it is. I like the feeling of a big car when driving down the road, and I actually think my GS feels bigger than my 2010 ES did when driving down the highway (I think mainly because you have a nice view of the hood out the windshield in the GS while you you couldn't really see the hood in my 2010 ES), yet it feels nimble and compact when driving aggressively.

I've said it before to you, but now having had the ES and the GS, the GS is an incredible upgrade in every way except carrying people in the backseat. It truly is the best car I've ever owned. Now, those upgrades come at a price, its a more expensive car no doubt, but if you're leasing you'd be shocked by how little the difference is. If you're buying its more...but you seem to really like the GS...I might ask which car you'd be happier with 5 years down the line...

Audi is doing much better reliability wise, check their rankings. The A6 is a great car, in some ways I liked it better than the GS but Audi has a terrible lease. The A6 is also a little more expensive than the GS when you option them up similarly, and has some weird feature omissions that force you into higher trims (for instance in order to get a power tilt/telescoping wheel you need the Prestige package).

A car you really should drive if you haven't is a Hyundai Genesis. It might get you some of the sportiness you're looking for with more of the space and price point of the ES. The Genesis is all new next year, but the current car is very good (very Lexuslike) and can be bought at a steal.

wasjr

I believe this is another factor in the ES favor of your decision. The 15 cf of trunk space in the 350 plus the large back seat would offer additional room and comfort.

TomMartin

Hate to admit it but my "ego" probably isn't ready to buy a Hyundai...even though I realize there are some very nice vehicles coming out of South Korea (I think?).

I really appreciate your comments and have gained good insight from them...Thanks...Tom

TomMartin

You are correct...when we travel will fill up the truck and the back seat. Wife's philosophy is that we fill it up with certain "gifts" to deliver as we visit friends and relatives along the way...AND that then leaves space for her to put the "valuables" she buys along the way Thanks...Tom

SW17LS

I won't fault you on that, thats why I don't have one LOL

lesz

I consider myself to be a "former enthusiast". Over the years, I've owned cars that include a couple Porshes, Camaros, Mustangs, Nissan Z cars, and a couple of other European sports cars. If I still considered myself to be an "enthusiast", I'd definitely be interested in a GS, but the GS is not at all consistent with my priorities at this point in my life. I'm no longer interested in the thrill of racing down a canyon road and accelerating through and out of decreasing radius turns. At this point in my life, I want a quiet, comfortable ride. I want the security in the winter of front-wheel drive and not rear-wheel drive, and I'm not willing to pay the price, in terms of lower mpg, that would come with an all-wheel drive sedan. That being the case, the ES meets my needs quite well, and, even though I'm sure that a GS would have appealed to me 25 years ago, today, it would have very little appeal.

I have a hard time thinking of the word "upgrade" as being appropriate for use in comparing the ES to the GS. To me, it would be like saying that a Corvette is an upgrade from a 4X4 pickup truck. If I lived in a New York City high rise, I would likely have little use for the 4X4 pickup. On the other hand, if I needed to haul hay, the Corvette would be of little use for me. Thus, I would consider neither of the pickup nor the Corvette to be an "upgrade" from the other.

The ES and the GS are very different vehicles. While I don't question that the GS has a more upscale interior than does the ES, if I'm looking for secure footing on winter roads, I wouldn't want a rear-wheel drive GS. And, if I'm looking to also have good fuel economy, I wouldn't want an all-wheel drive GS. On the other hand, for those who don't care about the better handling of the GS, the front-wheel drive ES makes for a good compromise of better winter security than a rear-wheel drive vehicle with better gas mileage than either a rear-wheel drive or an all-wheel drive GS. If Lexus made an upscale front-wheel drive version of the ES with more creature comforts for $65,000, I would consider that to be an upgrade. On the other hand, since the two cars so very different from each other in terms of their intended purposes, I don't consider either of them to be a substitute for the other, and I only consider the term upgrade to be appropriate if the vehicles being compared are, in fact, similar in terms of their intended purposes, and that is not the case with the ES and GS.

SW17LS

I agreed with you for a long time, but now that I have the GS I am very impressed with what a smooth, comfortable cruiser it is. My priorities are the same as yours, I'm not a canyon carver either which is why I had two ESs and my first experience with Lexus was my Dad's two LSs. Just tonight we were driving home from a happy hour event and I thought to myself what a beautiful riding car the GS is. It has a glass like refinement reminiscent of the LS that the ES doesn't have.

The GS exceeds my previous ESs in every metric other than rear seat comfort, that includes ride comfort and isolation. It's quieter and smoother. I get probably 2 MPG less overall with the GS than I did the ES. NO biggie.

Not to knock the ES, it's a great car but until you live with one of the more premium Lexus sedans day in and out you really don't know what you're missing with the ES. I bought the GS because of the interior, and only over time have I come to realize its other benefits.

lesz

No, I don't think our priorities are the same. I want a front-wheel drive vehicle. Ten years ago, I never would have thought that that would have been possible, but that is where my priorities are now. If I want a front-wheel drive in the Lexus line-up, where do I go for an upgrade? I don't question one bit that the GS has a number of things going for it over the ES, and, for you, I have no doubt that it meets your needs better than the ES, but, for my needs, if my GS choices are rear-wheel drive and all-wheel drive, it is not an "upgrade" because it doesn't meet one of my primary needs. And that is why I would not question what you say if you had said that, for you, the GS was a much better car, but, if a car does not meet my needs, it isn't an upgrade regardless of how good it is.

SW17LS

We're getting away from the topic of the thread, the only reason why I posted was to respond to Tom's decision process between the ES and GS with my experience having owned the GS after many years of owning the ES.

My question to you would be why you want FWD. FWD is a drivetrain of economy, it doesn't present any benefit to the driver over RWD or certainly AWD other than it being inexpensive, that's why You don't see many FWD luxury sedans, and none at the upper end. I can understand wanting a FWD over a RWD car if snow traction is a concern, but not an AWD car. An AWD GS will be much more stable in the snow than a FWD ES, FWD helps getting going, but you make some sacrifices in snowy conditions when it comes to control when at speed. Economy is a concern, but like I said real world I've lost maybe 2MPG over my old ES.

Next you'll say the LS isn't an upgrade. The GS is certainly an upgrade from the ES, the only question is whether it's worth the premium to you or not. Gotta have some objectivity, I love my GS but I will concede the LS is an upgrade.

TomMartin

Great discussion...sounds like each of you have the right Lexus for you use/needs/wants. I sense I kind of have one foot in each car...so to speak. I like the price/mileage/regular gas and much about the ES...but I do want a car that feels firm on a clover leaf and competent in heavy traffic at 80 mph on a freeway. My sense is that an ES with beefed up sway bars and firmer premium shocks would do just fine for me...but there does not seem to be any particular demand/supply for such in the after market.

I think I may need another ES test drive for a more extended length of time...get a better feel for the ride. May be just fine.

BTW...I do sense that there is not much direct competition for the ES @ $40K...unique size/price/luxury combination. The GS does have some competition as it moves toward the mid $50s to $60K price category. Not sure I would be very interested in A6/E350 or 500 series. Probably not the new CTS either. If I decide to go more $$$$ it will probably be a GS. May see what the December to Remember sale offers. The current deals seem to be stronger on the GS than on the ES. I also am well aware that as I keep my vehicles for around 10 years...the extra cost IS worth it to me if I would otherwise be disappointed...not too much additional more than $1K/year plus a bit of gas...opps, sounds like I am rationalizing now

Thanks Guys...I will keep you posted...Tom

SW17LS

There's a lot more competition down in the ES range than there used to be. You have he ES, the Lacrosse, the Genesis and Azera, the Avalon, the new Kia Cadenza which is excellent. The Lincoln MKZ which is excellent.

lesz

I have no trouble whatever with you deciding that the GS (or any other car) is the best choice for you. What I have a problem with is a tone that comes across as you asserting that what is the best choice for you must be the best choice for everyone else. I assure you that I am more than capable of deciding what is the best choice for me, but I would not be so arrogant as to try to assert that, if others are making a different choice for themselves, they must be wrong in making that choice.

In any case, I'm done being guilty of cooperating in the hijacking of my own thread.

SW17LS

I certainly am well within my rights to offer my experience and viewpoint to a fellow member who is deciding between two vehicles that I have owned. There was nothing disrespectful or negative about my post at all, and in fact the member my post was directed towards thanked me for my input. At no time did I say you or anybody else was wrong for buying the ES, in fact I said several times it was a great car. Tom has not bought a car yet, and my advice and viewpoints were directed towards him, since I've owned both of the cars he's deciding between I think that viewpoint is of value.

You replied to me and challenged what I said, I can't be guilty of trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't choose when I never even addressed you.

TomMartin

Thanks Steve and Lesz...I truly appreciate all of the comments and discussion...it has been very helpful. In fact, I feel the need to next go and do some more test driving to get a feel for each car. I DO like them both and kind of look forward to what the December to Remember deals look like.

Thanks again for the great discussion...Tom

SW17LS

Thats really what you need to do. if you want the best ride out of the GS, you should drive the Luxury model car. It has the adaptive suspension, and the interior enhancements (linear espresso wood, aniline leather, adaptive lighting, the front seat adjustments and rear audio/sunshades, 3 zone climate) really put it over the top for me compared to the ES. Of course, it also adds to the cost difference, about $4k. I find the interior of the Premium GS model a little cold with the matte wood, all leather wheel, etc. F Sport depends on whether you want more emphasis on sport or luxury.

Take them both out back to back over the same route.

December to Remember is mainly going to be a lease program. If you're looking to buy you won't see a huge benefit as these are both invoice cars already. No way around it, the GS will be $10-15k more. I lease, so for me the difference in the payments was maybe $50. Spending an extra $10-15k would have made it a harder choice but ultimately having the experience with the GS I have had now I would still go for it. Back when I was buying I dunno.