gmanusmc

Got it - your actual selling price was $41.5k. That's what is helpful to the folks on here trying to gauge pricing. Thanks for the info and congrats on your new car and great deal.

lesz

I'm usually pretty good at grasping concepts that include numbers, but I have to admit that, in reading the several posts from ephone and comparing his deal to that of Vincent05, I have little confidence in coming to any conclusions. I do not, however, think that he is saying that the actual selling price was $41,500. Instead, I think he is saying that it was $43,000.

In any case, the combination of what ephone has said about his deal and the facts that Vincent05 has given about his are a perfect example of what I have said pages back in this thread. There are so many variables in a car deal. Any one of those variables can make thousands of dollars of difference in the final deal, and there is absolutely no way to judge whether a deal is a "good deal" or a "bad deal" without considering all of the variables together. When the dealership can get customers to focus on just one of those variables, such as price related to MSRP or price related to invoice, the dealer is, then, empowered to use the the other variables as means of padding its profits.

In the case of comparing ephone's deal to that of Vincent05, we have no idea, in ephone's deal, for example's, whether the true fair trade-in value in his deal was $1500 or whether it was $500 or $5000 dollars. We have no idea whether, in comparing the two deals, financing was involved in both and whether financing terms, if applicable, were similar. The variable of financing terms, by itself, could make a difference of several thousand dollars in profit to the dealership. Further, since ephone is in California and Vincent05 is in Pennsylvania, we have no idea of the difference in true cost (not invoice) of the vehicle to the dealership, and it is likely that there is a considerable difference in true cost of an ES to a dealership in California compared to true cost of that same vehicle to the dealership in Pennsylvania. Then, add in possible differences in the two deals with regard to dealer-installed options, purchase of extended warranties, purchase of maintenance plans, etc.

Even as someone who was in the car business for several years, I couldn't begin to take a guess, based on the information presented, whether the deals of ephone and Vincent05 are comparable or whether either one of them might have been a deal that was thousands of dollars better than the other. And, if I were still in the car business, nothing would please me more than to see potential customers focusing on the things that we, in this thread, seem determined to focus on because, again, what we are doing is empowering the dealership to pad its profits by using all of the other variables that we are not considering.

ephone

To be honest, I have tried my best and am not sure how clear I can be.

If the trade-in is really that confusing, just add 1500 * 1.0625 = 1593.75 to the price I paid.

In addition, some people keep saying about selling price is the most important. Well, I think you need consider both the MSRP and the selling price as well since car's MSRP normally contains the options your car has. Simply telling you the selling price without MSRP will not mean much.

Using that MSRP, you can simply query any lexus dealership's inventory to find out what is exactly on that car.

In my case, the 41500 price is just the starting point I negotiate with the dealership without trade-in.

Then my trade-in is appraised, given a 1500 value. Factoring the trade-in, cost of tinting windows, TTL (6.25% tax rate), I was quoted a OTD cost about $43,300.

I told the dealership that I will sign the paperwork if it can reduce it to $42500 OTD. It is done in the end.

So if you say trade-in is really confusing still, though I do not know why, take it out then. My final all-included OTD price would be around 44k without trade in.

Then the story will be:
For MSRP 46928, I ask for 41500 before TTL, dealership calculates TTL, cost of tinting windows and gives me a OTD price around 44800. I ask it to reduce another $800 to all-included OTD price $44k. It is then done.

I hope this will be clear. In addition, different states have different tax rates. So whoever put their price out, it will be better to put his/her state's tax rate out as well.

Glad that I can help here.

ephone

In addition, I bought 7-year 100k lexus platinum zero deductible warranty from another Lexus dealership for $1800.

I did not buy it from the lexus dealership where I bought my ES300h since its quote is around 3k.

I hope it will also be helpful to those who want to buy additional warranty.

ephone

I did ask the sales who sold me the Lexus 7-year 100k zero deductible platinum warranty about the 2015 ES300h pricing, it seems that it would be around 2500 higher than the 2014 model for similar configuration.

That one is not a big lexus dealership. However, it did sell me the warranty at 1800 rather than the 3000 quoted from the big lexus dealership at Dallas.

I suppose you may have to expect to pay at least 2k more than the 2014 model.

For my configuration, you may expect to pay an all-included OTD price 1k below MSRP if possible.
(e.g. MSRP around 47k, your all included OTD cost is around 46k)

I have not done that. But it is worth trying.

Mike728

I will never understand the obsession with OTD pricing. As has been stated several times over, it's meaningless. Just about as meaningless as factoring in dealer installed options, such as film, wheel locks, etc, as well as trade-ins.

MSRP (sticker price from Mfg) = X
Negotiated price (being upfront with all incentives offered at the time) = Y
X-Y=total savings

Things outside that equation: Trade-in, window tinting, warranty, etc... These are a separate negotiation and should be considered as such. It is usually extremely difficult to separate the two, unless you have no trade-in and are paying cash.

That said, it makes for some interesting reading and gives others a glimpse into other's buying experiences. I know I didn't get the best deal back in March of '13 (~7% off MSPP), but I was pleased with the deal. That should be the bottom line for anyone looking to purchase.

lesz

But, without considering all of the other variables, the price paid for the vehicle alone is meaningless. If 2 people both pay, say, $43000 for identical ES vehicles with a MSRP of $47000 and if both have identical vehicles to trade but if one is given $20,000 for the trade-in while the other is given $16000 for the trade-in, the quality of the deals is clearly quite different.

If I want to remodel the kitchen in my house and if two contractors both offer to provide the labor for $15000, but, if one is going charge $10000 for materials and the other is going to charge $30000 for the same materials, clearly, the two bids are not the same. Similarly, if two dealers are going to sell me the same car for $42000, but one of them is able to sell me an extended warranty that costs the dealership $500 for $2000, clearly the deals from the two dealers are not the same.

With so many variables factoring into a new vehicle sale, it is the job of the salesperson to get the customer to focus on the variable that makes the customer feel that he/she is getting a "great deal", and it is also the job of the salesperson to blur and obscure the variables that allow the dealership to maximize its profits. If the salesperson is skilled at doing so, the customer will walk out of the dealership thinking that he/she took the dealership to the cleaners, and, at the same time, the dealership will have maximized its profits. When, in threads like this, people only focus on a small portion of the variables that make up the total deal, what we are doing is making it easier for the dealers to obscure and blur the variables from which they are going to make their real profits.

Mike728

Since there is no way to accurately compare the other variables, this thread should probably be closed. Like I said, that's another negotiation and should be listed here as such. Used cars have different values in different parts of the country, just like the odds of getting a 12%+ discount are much higher in CA, than say ID, which has one dealer in the state.

Vincent05

I agree we can't expect to get the same discount from west coast dealers to east coast dealers but it helps going in to buy a car knowing how much lower they can go from what they initially offer. It is better to know then to negotiate blindly or play the hardball game, that is if you want to get the best deal you can get while saving money. I have a friend who just goes in and make a few offer then when the dealer says that is as low as they can go and he just buys it. There are many people out there like that who just wants to get the car without playing the "game".

I don't agree with closing this thread as it has helped me in knowing what people are paying around the country. Might be helpful if 1 person got a great deal in your area while you am shopping for the same car. I see alot of members are in the Cali and Texas area here so that should help other members out greatly. People should just post everything separately so that makes it easier to see what the price of the car is. Taxes and Tags shouldn't matter as every state is different and we can't avoid or negotiate it. This way everything is clear cut for everyone.

MSRP-
Invoice-
Sales price (or paid price with installed options included)
Installed options at factory invoice
Extendend Warranty
Tax and Tags
Trade in value
Total price with everything

ephone

The OTD price is the actual price you end up paying.

It is your out-of-pocket real cost which will reduce your checking account or whatever financial account you will use.

You don't care that?

ephone

I agree with Vicent05.

It is quite helpful. Individual preference should not interfere with others.

For those who are confused with trade-in, well, just take it out and you will get the real pricing without trade-in easily. It is an elementary level math calculation. How hard can it be?

ephone

The value of trade-in is really not the point, you have totally lost the focus of the real discussion.

You can easily get the real cost without trade-in by taking it out of the value of trade-ins.

It would have been much more misleading if the buyers tell us a price without telling us that it is the price after trade-in.

lesz

You are probably right, but threads like this one will always be popular because it is a part of human nature that, when people post the (partial) details of their deals, it can make them feel good to think that they were able to do something special in their negotiations, even though the reality is that it is virtually impossible to evaluate the quality of a deal by comparing the details given in various posts.

The "deal" that I made for my ES a year ago is a perfect example of how meaningless and misleading deal details can be. Initially, the dealer's salesperson offered me a bit less than $3000 off of MSRP. During the subsequent negotiations, the dealer came down about another $3000 in the price, but, on the paperwork for the vehicle sale, it still shows the same slightly less than $3000 off of MSRP because the additional $3000 of lower price was added entirely to the value of my trade in. On paper, the dealer was actually giving me about $1000 more for my trade in than its retail (not trade-in) value. And, when the dealer finally sold my trade in, they sold it for over $1000 less than what they, on paper, gave me for the car. If the paperwork had shown what they were, in reality, giving me for the trade-in, they could have deducted another $3000 from the price I was paying for the new ES. While doing doing so might have made me feel like I had taken the dealer to the cleaners, my final out-of-pocket cost would have been identical to what it turned out to be with them putting a higher value on my trade in and applying a lower discount to the price of the new ES.

Further, had they been able to sell me an extended warranty, even if they had "discounted" it to $2000, they could have decreased the price for the new ES by another $1000 and still increased their profit. And, had I financed the new ES through them or leased the new vehicle, they could have decreased the on-paper price of the new ES even further and still increased their profit margin even more. Be assured that what is important to the dealership is the net profit on all aspects of the deal, and they have little concern for individual components of that deal, like what is shown on paper as the price of the new vehicle related to MSRP or what they are offering for the customer's trade in.

All of this, decades ago, made me wonder who is better off? Is is the person who walks out of the dealership with a fair deal but who thinks he took the dealer to the cleaners? Or is it the person who might have gotten a better deal but who walks out of the dealership knowing that, even with that better deal, the dealership still made a decent amount of profit? While it is likely that the majority of car buyers like to walk out of the dealership thinking that their negotiating skill allowed them to get some sort of extraordinarily special deal, the reality is that, if you eliminate the 1-2% of best deals and the 1-2% of worst deals, the vast majority of car sales are such that the difference between the "great deals" and the "poor deals" amounts to bottom line price differences of a couple of hundred dollars and not thousands of dollars.

gmanusmc

Maybe you can tell by my last response to him - I give up trying to figure his numbers - they are and have been all over the map from the beginning.

I don't get why people just can't say something like:

Selling price was X, minus Y credit for my trade in equity, plus Z for taxes and all fees for a total out the door paid of XYZ. Geez - how hard is that?

The actual point I was trying to get across is that most folks are primarily interested in the selling price so they can get an idea of what they should shoot for. Just as you have said, bringing trade in values and taxes/fees into it confuses the numbers because of differing locale requirements/rates.

gfr1

Strange statement. Such as, dealer will charge MSRP, but he'll give you $4,000.00 for your trade-in for a car that's worth $1,500.00. So, you'll just subtract the $4,000.00? That sounds so simple.