Unintended Acceleration
06-27-07, 01:12 PM
#61
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I don't know...I still see this the other way. When asked why you can't put all weather mats over carpeted mats, my question in return is, "Why would you want to do so?" It just seems like a very clumsy and awkward installation under the best of circumstances...including changing the angle at which your right foot approaches the accelerator and brake pedals. When you put the a/w mats on top of the carpeted ones, doesn't your eye immediately notice that they seem really tall? Just curious...not trying to offend or add heat to the discussion.
The design includes openings for the hooks and pretty clear verbiage right on the face of the mat...I'm not sure how much further Lexus (or any manufacturer...I've had such mats on GM, Acura, Audi, as well as my wife's ES and my RX)...needs to go beyond that. At the same time, my Audi mats came with a disclaimer note stapled right to the cardboard which stated the installation warning. On my wife's ES, the dealership parts guy mentioned, "You know to remove the carpeted mats first, right?" I'll agree that maybe some more reinforcement is in order to ensure proper installation, but I still can't get past the idea that correct installation is pretty logical.
The design includes openings for the hooks and pretty clear verbiage right on the face of the mat...I'm not sure how much further Lexus (or any manufacturer...I've had such mats on GM, Acura, Audi, as well as my wife's ES and my RX)...needs to go beyond that. At the same time, my Audi mats came with a disclaimer note stapled right to the cardboard which stated the installation warning. On my wife's ES, the dealership parts guy mentioned, "You know to remove the carpeted mats first, right?" I'll agree that maybe some more reinforcement is in order to ensure proper installation, but I still can't get past the idea that correct installation is pretty logical.
Do you really think the black on black embossed "do not place on top of existing floor mats" is "pretty clear verbiage"? You can't even see it! I had to take it out of the car, hold it up to the light, and still could barely make it out. Someone not looking for it would not likely see it.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:31 AM.
06-27-07, 01:44 PM
#62
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Lexus isn't the only car manufacturer with hooks for the floor mats. Nor are they the only one offerning all-weather mats. Yes they probably could have been designed better and I'm guessing they'll be revised with the 08's. But as was stated earlier in this thread, consumers/drivers bear a certain amount of responsibility to exercise some common sense when it comes to matters like this with their cars.
06-27-07, 04:22 PM
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Lexus isn't the only car manufacturer with hooks for the floor mats. Nor are they the only one offerning all-weather mats. Yes they probably could have been designed better and I'm guessing they'll be revised with the 08's. But as was stated earlier in this thread, consumers/drivers bear a certain amount of responsibility to exercise some common sense when it comes to matters like this with their cars.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:57 AM.
06-27-07, 04:38 PM
#64
The only problem with that argument.... If the mats are installed correctly, there is no operator error. Otherwise, 100% of it is operator error. Whether it's you or the car wash guy, if the mats aren't tethered to their hooks with the carpeted mats in the garage, the fault for a pedal stuck under the gas pedal simply does not lie with the manufacturer.
Now that doesn't speak to one's ability to shut off the engine. Nor does it speak to the other theories out there for the unintended acceleration that occurs without the floor mat being in the equation. But from what I've read there are something like 16-17 floor mat-related problems, right? Out of how many vehicles sold?
Now that doesn't speak to one's ability to shut off the engine. Nor does it speak to the other theories out there for the unintended acceleration that occurs without the floor mat being in the equation. But from what I've read there are something like 16-17 floor mat-related problems, right? Out of how many vehicles sold?
06-27-07, 05:48 PM
#65
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The only problem with that argument.... If the mats are installed correctly, there is no operator error. Otherwise, 100% of it is operator error. Whether it's you or the car wash guy, if the mats aren't tethered to their hooks with the carpeted mats in the garage, the fault for a pedal stuck under the gas pedal simply does not lie with the manufacturer.
Now that doesn't speak to one's ability to shut off the engine. Nor does it speak to the other theories out there for the unintended acceleration that occurs without the floor mat being in the equation. But from what I've read there are something like 16-17 floor mat-related problems, right? Out of how many vehicles sold?
Now that doesn't speak to one's ability to shut off the engine. Nor does it speak to the other theories out there for the unintended acceleration that occurs without the floor mat being in the equation. But from what I've read there are something like 16-17 floor mat-related problems, right? Out of how many vehicles sold?
Based on average monthly sales of the ES since it was launched in April '06, 75K-80K is a good estimate.
06-27-07, 06:36 PM
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The All weather floor mat is an option. If this number is correct for ES-350's, how many have the mats? Half at best?
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:58 AM.
06-27-07, 07:16 PM
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The only problem with that argument.... If the mats are installed correctly, there is no operator error. Otherwise, 100% of it is operator error. Whether it's you or the car wash guy, if the mats aren't tethered to their hooks with the carpeted mats in the garage, the fault for a pedal stuck under the gas pedal simply does not lie with the manufacturer.
Now that doesn't speak to one's ability to shut off the engine. Nor does it speak to the other theories out there for the unintended acceleration that occurs without the floor mat being in the equation. But from what I've read there are something like 16-17 floor mat-related problems, right? Out of how many vehicles sold?
Now that doesn't speak to one's ability to shut off the engine. Nor does it speak to the other theories out there for the unintended acceleration that occurs without the floor mat being in the equation. But from what I've read there are something like 16-17 floor mat-related problems, right? Out of how many vehicles sold?
For the manufacturers who have the hooks, why can't they make the mats like other manufacturers who don't need hooks?
The other gentleman on this site cited 80k as an approximate number sold. If we assume that's right and that the optional mats are say, in half of the cars (I don't know this number, just know it's not a standard feature) then that's 40k cars, which is a relatively small number for the industry.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:59 AM.
06-28-07, 08:12 AM
#68
My guess would be that 10% or maybe even fewer buy all-weather mats. Any more popular than that and they'd likely be included in an option package. That is just a guess, though.
My point regarding operator error: ignorance is not bliss. Because one doesn't read the instructions printed on the mat, or use the common sense to question the existence of hooks in the floor and related round openings in the mat, does not make it the fault of the manufacturer when such an incorrectly installed mat slides forward.
Why do some cars have hooks/tethers and others don't? Simple. Floorboard design. Some cars have deeper wells in the floor that fit the exact contours of the mat. Most don't. The Acura, Audi, Toyota, and Lexus vehicles I've experienced all use some sort of tethering method for mats...carpeted as well as rubber.
My point regarding operator error: ignorance is not bliss. Because one doesn't read the instructions printed on the mat, or use the common sense to question the existence of hooks in the floor and related round openings in the mat, does not make it the fault of the manufacturer when such an incorrectly installed mat slides forward.
Why do some cars have hooks/tethers and others don't? Simple. Floorboard design. Some cars have deeper wells in the floor that fit the exact contours of the mat. Most don't. The Acura, Audi, Toyota, and Lexus vehicles I've experienced all use some sort of tethering method for mats...carpeted as well as rubber.
07-23-07, 07:40 PM
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Sorry for late reply--this is my first time back to this forum. It had happened a few weeks before I made the initial post. I really don't know how long it took me to stop, but it seemed like a couple minutes. I first tried pressing the ignitition button several times, but that didn't work, so I put the car in neutral (probably redlining it) and drifted to the shoulder. Once we had stopped, I pressed and held the ignition button for several seconds--that finally shut the engine down. My Lexus mechanic did not think I did any damage to the vehicle, and I have had no trouble with the car since the event. I did report the incident to the NHTSI.
07-30-07, 03:28 AM
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Just for the record, should anyone care if the information comes from someone with Toyota affiliations? Surely the sole criteria is accuracy of information?
The information provided is quite precise, and unambiguous, suggesting to me that the author does have a strong technical background, and I would ascribe weight to such information despite the best efforts to muddy the waters on the matter of unintended acceleration.
For the record, I used to work for an auto manufacturer on the other side of the world, and have no interest in anything related to Toyota. UA is caused by the driver's foot on the accelerator, driven by a brain & nervous system that is saying "this is the brake & I should push it through the floor no matter what else happens" and, in the words of the immortal Bugs Bunny, "That's all, Folks!". There is no "cure" for UA, and UA will go on for as long as we have driver operation of automobiles. Don't confuse UA with sticking throttles, or mats holding throttle pedals already depressed (ie opened throttles), because these incidents have quite distinctly different characteristics to UA incidents. And if you can't see the differences in the characteristics, then someone failed to ask all the relevant questions of the driver & any witnesses, and failed to properly match up the physical evidence with all of the statements. Cheers Iain
The information provided is quite precise, and unambiguous, suggesting to me that the author does have a strong technical background, and I would ascribe weight to such information despite the best efforts to muddy the waters on the matter of unintended acceleration.
For the record, I used to work for an auto manufacturer on the other side of the world, and have no interest in anything related to Toyota. UA is caused by the driver's foot on the accelerator, driven by a brain & nervous system that is saying "this is the brake & I should push it through the floor no matter what else happens" and, in the words of the immortal Bugs Bunny, "That's all, Folks!". There is no "cure" for UA, and UA will go on for as long as we have driver operation of automobiles. Don't confuse UA with sticking throttles, or mats holding throttle pedals already depressed (ie opened throttles), because these incidents have quite distinctly different characteristics to UA incidents. And if you can't see the differences in the characteristics, then someone failed to ask all the relevant questions of the driver & any witnesses, and failed to properly match up the physical evidence with all of the statements. Cheers Iain
08-15-07, 07:16 AM
#71
Es350
Unintended Acceleration Reports 4 Prius & ES350
As of late, the Toyota Prius has been generating complaints of unintended acceleration. First reported a year ago, several Prius owners have complained that the car will accelerate or lunge forward with no input from the driver. Toyota service technicians have dismissed the claim as a flaw in vehicle's computer system, electronic controls or software program and put the blame on driver error or a floor mat jamming the accelerator.
But it looks as though Toyota's unexpected acceleration problem extends beyond just the Prius model. According to the Detroit Free Press, federal regulators have stepped up an investigation into 98,454 Lexus ES 350 sedans after receiving 40 reports of unintentional acceleration, including 8 accidents, 12 injuries and several cases in which cars only stopped after an accident. Just like with the Prius accidents, Toyota told officials that the incidents were caused by loose floor mats and contends that it dealt with the flaw through a mailing to customers earlier this year.
Despite Toyota's claims, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration verified several of the complaints. In one such case, a man's car accelerated to over 100 mph on a 6-mile stretch of highway. However, the NHTSA did find that the majority of the cars in the investigation had optional all-season floor mats. When improperly installed, it is possible for these rubber mats to slide under the accelerator.
The NHTSA also found that many of the ES 350s had the optional push button start instead of a traditional key. Some drivers tried to shut off the car during the unintended acceleration but were unable. Toyota said that the button must be held down for 3 seconds in order to shut off the engine. The investigation remains ongoing.
As of late, the Toyota Prius has been generating complaints of unintended acceleration. First reported a year ago, several Prius owners have complained that the car will accelerate or lunge forward with no input from the driver. Toyota service technicians have dismissed the claim as a flaw in vehicle's computer system, electronic controls or software program and put the blame on driver error or a floor mat jamming the accelerator.
But it looks as though Toyota's unexpected acceleration problem extends beyond just the Prius model. According to the Detroit Free Press, federal regulators have stepped up an investigation into 98,454 Lexus ES 350 sedans after receiving 40 reports of unintentional acceleration, including 8 accidents, 12 injuries and several cases in which cars only stopped after an accident. Just like with the Prius accidents, Toyota told officials that the incidents were caused by loose floor mats and contends that it dealt with the flaw through a mailing to customers earlier this year.
Despite Toyota's claims, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration verified several of the complaints. In one such case, a man's car accelerated to over 100 mph on a 6-mile stretch of highway. However, the NHTSA did find that the majority of the cars in the investigation had optional all-season floor mats. When improperly installed, it is possible for these rubber mats to slide under the accelerator.
The NHTSA also found that many of the ES 350s had the optional push button start instead of a traditional key. Some drivers tried to shut off the car during the unintended acceleration but were unable. Toyota said that the button must be held down for 3 seconds in order to shut off the engine. The investigation remains ongoing.
08-15-07, 11:04 AM
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Unintended Acceleration Reports 4 Prius & ES350The NHTSA also found that many of the ES 350s had the optional push button start instead of a traditional key.
08-16-07, 02:49 AM
#73
this whole thing was just brought up again on the 5am news today about the 07 es350 and the all weather mats. funky problem.. dropped in here to mention it to you guys that might not have known but apparently this has been under discussion for quite some time. ok back to work.
08-16-07, 05:27 AM
#74
this whole thing was just brought up again on the 5am news today about the 07 es350 and the all weather mats. funky problem.. dropped in here to mention it to you guys that might not have known but apparently this has been under discussion for quite some time. ok back to work.
08-16-07, 02:37 PM
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[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A few of us reported the problerm with the all weather floor mats last year. Here are some references from Google alert on the subject. My ES 350 continues to perform as per specs.[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Federal agency investigates Lexus after acceleration reports
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']San Diego Union Tribune - United States[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
Vehicle investigations can lead to product recalls. There are 98454 ES 350 sedans on the road. Lexus spokesman Greg Thome said because the investigation is ...
See all stories on this topic [/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Federal agency investigates Lexus after acceleration reports
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']KTRE - Lufkin,TX,USA[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
1 of the crashes of a 2007 Lexus ES 350 sedan caused a seven-car pileup. In some cases, transportation authorities say drivers sped more than 90 miles an ...
See all stories on this topic [/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Federal agency investigates Lexus after acceleration reports ...
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']KXMC - Minot,ND,USA[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
One of the crashes of a 2007 Lexus ES 350 sedan caused a seven-car pileup. In some cases, transportation authorities say drivers sped more than 90 miles an ...
[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Federal agency investigates Lexus after acceleration reports
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']San Diego Union Tribune - United States[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
Vehicle investigations can lead to product recalls. There are 98454 ES 350 sedans on the road. Lexus spokesman Greg Thome said because the investigation is ...
See all stories on this topic [/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Federal agency investigates Lexus after acceleration reports
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']KTRE - Lufkin,TX,USA[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
1 of the crashes of a 2007 Lexus ES 350 sedan caused a seven-car pileup. In some cases, transportation authorities say drivers sped more than 90 miles an ...
See all stories on this topic [/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Federal agency investigates Lexus after acceleration reports ...
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']KXMC - Minot,ND,USA[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
One of the crashes of a 2007 Lexus ES 350 sedan caused a seven-car pileup. In some cases, transportation authorities say drivers sped more than 90 miles an ...
[/FONT]