ES350Bob

Engine clatter is not the limit of what we are talking about with diesel engine knocking tapping complaints. If you had this in your vehicle you'd immediately know it is anything but normal. Take a butter knife handle and rapidly whack it on the counter top at home for 5 minutes straight and after you have done that then view hearing that inside the car for the first 5 minutes of driving each time you have started the car from cold and see if your opinion changes. Noisy clatter is an at idle sound that on it's own can be excessive, the knocking tapping is another matter entirely and an engine defect, diagnosed as such.

Wind noise is not a mechanical problem as you implied but it is a nuisance and annoyance equal to how many owners view an unresolved rattle. It is even a seperate category on purchase survey where you rate the car at time of purchase, the salesman's performance and the dealership, the category for it is...Wind noise...where is it coming from is asked...though NOTHING is done about it.

As to failure to address issues...meet wanderer99, ESsearch, myself, all forced to remain stuck in a vehicle with a hosed up transmission and that is what this advice/opinion sought thread is about where my current car is concerned, my reluctance to approach this as buyback having already been stuck in one once before because Toyota/Lexus will ignore it's responsibilities though reluctance is not a great reason not to attempt to have Lexus address it's responsibilities.

ES350Bob

dunno,,

A little more on the dealer calls dealer with VIN to try to maximize their trade offer to you:

I am not saying that a Lexus dealer deliberately tried to sideline my purchase of an Infiniti. But what is otherwise a normal back and forth between dealers is not normal when defects are viewed as defects to assign a lower offer but for months you were told or they tried to convince you that they were not defects.

Example: If you called a dealer to sell him your car, he'd look it up by it's VIN. The normal back and forth between you and him might go like this: I see your car has x miles, you know it's an 07 and even though new we are now in 08, and that it had an issue with needing it's water pump replaced <--example only-----> and you had some body work done to replace a cracked taillight assembly...Normal negative dialogue you have to listen to about your vehicle history that is usually meaningless and simply said to get your primed for a low offer about to be made to you.

Now comes what actually happened to me...amount give for trade allowance, I balked at it, VIN taken and sales manager on a mission to make a sale so he calls Lexus dealer to try to get more money....the otherwise normal back and forth, use negatives to bargain and get best purchase price by Lexus dealer then becomes...we see it has had issues with it's transmission, engine, blah, blah and instead of my trade allowance improving, it dropped even LOWER...And did not budge from there even though salesman told the sales manager right in front of me that Lexus had completely cleared the car as totally normal because I had just explained it all on the test drive to salesman before this happened, explained before I was given first trade allowance price. It only became an issue after dealer to dealer call. Are they going to believe me that it is all normal according to Lexus or are they going to go with it has issues as just stated to them as part of a bargaining process when they tried to sell it to dealer at better price than the auction or wholesale price????

Substitute engine, wind, transmission for the examples I gave you above of water pump, cracked taillight assembly, this is just how it is done.
This back and forth, throw mud on the used car to bargain the best price is otherwise totally normal, seems it goes on all the time, just not fair at all in my opinion when the negatives used were defects I had been repeatedly told were normal characteristics. That's why, less on it's service history the better in these circumstances of wind noise, engine noise and transmission or any other issue our members tell us they are sent away on without resolution or were given claims of normal.

onsknht

The result of too many Sunday morning distractions, I wasn't able to get all the way through this thread with full comprehension, but I got the idea and can relate.

It's been said before that we all have different tolerence levels and as a result will all have a different experience. This is important to keep in mind when considering this debacle Toyota/Lexus has created.

Someone mentioned the 2GR and inherent clackity-clack through use of aluminum componentry, rewind 8 months and I said the very same... It's noisey, but solid and even my V8 Sequoia has a little tickity-tick, it's the way Toyota does things.

I could tolerate the noise, but the slip was over the edge for me.

Unfortunately, in my case, I've been 'around the block' with Toyota service before... Once again, my tolerance level was met as I pondered the outcome of the Removal and Replacement of a sophisticated piece such as the transaxle when they couldn't Reinstall the windshield wipers correctly.

As I'm sure everyone knows, I could tolerate no more... There are better things to do than document, rearrange, return calls, and miss out on other important things in my life. I looked over the edge, but I knew better than to jump. I bought the car to work for me, not the other way around and considering I've worked so hard to buy it to begin with... Well I'm sure you all can appreciate the vicious circle!

Since eliminating that problem from my life, I've been able to enjoy my hard work even though I lost a little, I gained a lot. My new car starts flawlessly and drives smoothly and predictably, when I ask it to do something, it does it and I've felt no need to "look-up what the hell it just did." Not Once! I've now owned my new car almost as long as I owned my combination 2GR-FE/U660E Toyota product and have almost as many miles...

I fear something with the new car though... It is so worry free for me, I think I'm abusing it a little bit. Nothing deliberate or destructive, it's just that I am so comfortable with it's performance that I don't feel I need to handle it like a Faberge Egg.

My sincere advice to anyone experiencing dissatisfaction with this model/model year car to the extent of getting out... TIME'S A WASTIN'! 2008s are going to be speculated and announced in the next 6 months, it'll only add to further devalue the 2007s. Word is out on the street about the 2007s issues and maintenance evaluations are sometimes performed, especially in the case of a "Dealer Group" one that sells both brands... They just call their sister dealership for a value, all they need is a VIN #... Acura was very hesitant over my trade, but their Toyota partner came back with an all good and they beat the "on the spot wholesaler" by 1500-2000 GWs! Likely a transaxle overhaul would have netted the "wholesale value?"

Another option you might pursue... Private Sale over dealer trade. I have had a lot of good luck selling snowmobiles and vehicles in the past, but it's a bit of work. If you're motivated by saving the few 1000 GWs by selling private party then this may lessen the blow considerably. Don't be intimidated by the fact you still have a bank note or 'scams' you hear, it can be done if you take some simple precautions and only deal on the item (no BS, cash or no-go). There are a lot of people out there just chompin for still-new predriven cars, they save a bit under invoice and so what, someone else put the first 5000 miles on it. (don't think you're going to get it "all" back you need to be realistic) Just have a story ready like your aunt passed away, willed you the car and you have no need for it.

ES350Bob

ons,

I appreciate your perspective because you have already gotten away from the dysfunction associated with a vehicle with issues. And I have to say you seem far more upbeat and even more humorous since you did it.

I'm 90 percent there myself, kicking the last tires, justifying part of the loss by taking note of not paying taxes on the entire purchase amount, usual tactics one mentally uses to justify taking a financial hit, but I have to say the sense of this is so wrong to be in this position, 2nd time no less on an ES350, made me question the correct avenue.

Your comments, pete's, oso, wanderer, also from others are helpful.

I do though wish you had actually taken apart that transmission on that clamry because you just may have actually solved it if you had really done it instead of it being that very funny teaser you posted when you got out of it in trade.

SW07ES

Last fall I rented a 2006 Avalon with the 2GR-FE and it had disconcerting tapping noises at idle and low engine speeds so I think I know what you are talking about.

2005 and 2006 Tacoma and 4Runner owners with the 1GR-FE engine have also heard these tapping noises and worried about them. Then Toyota came out with a TSB that explained the noises were not caused by an internal engine fault but were merely caused by the the exhaust manifold http://markass.com/hosting/Exhaust_TSB.pdf

Now I can imagine that some 2005 and 2006 Tacoma and 4Runner owners may have sold / traded their vehicles due to worries about the tapping noises (before the TSB came out) when they should have waited for Toyota to come out with an explanation for the noise and a solution.

ES350Bob

Curious why you feel people should have waited when it appears those who bought in 04 would be made to wait till April 06 and beyond tolerating that the whole time and no telling how many were initially told it was normal given no hope of a resolution?

In the case of the ES it is an engine defect, not manifold.

SW07ES

If you are refering to the hesitation upon abrupt acceleration of the 2004 ES330, this was a drivability annoyance related to the USA emission certification. My understanding is the Canadian versions of the 2004 ES330 didn't hesitate. Also, Toyota Highlanders with the same 3MZ-FE engine didn't hesitate because SUV emissions are not as stringent. I'm not a Toyota insider, but I'd speculate Toyota was caught between a rock and a hard place if the effective fix for the hesitation would have also compromised the emissions certification.

I have not heard of any ES350, Avalon, RX350 or Camry 2RG-FE engines that needed warrany repairs / replacements because of defective internal parts. Have you heard of any such reports?

MD350

Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing

1) It took Toyota 2 years to come out with a TSB to fix my Sienna with the 3.3L engine, hesitation issues. After the flash update, things were better but not perfect. I was able to trade the car in to a Honda dealer. Honda did not check the service history of the unit and I received a very good trade allowance.

2) I feel the same will happen with the ES. Sure, there will be TSIB's coming out in the future. I don't think there will be any serious negative press on this car. I don't think values will plummet. I feel owners will be able to trade out of these cars easily to NON-LEXUS dealers who won't check the service history. Private sale is another option, as ONS stated.

3) I would not be surprised if the 2008 ES still has issues. Waiting until the 08's come out won't make any difference.

4) After owning 6 Honda/Acura products, after the 04 Sienna it was back to Honda for my wife (Pilot purchase last month). After the 07 ES, it will be back to Acura for me. Forget waiting for a TSIB, going back to Honda will solve the problems once and for all!! It already has for my wife!!!

ES350Bob

MD,

Thanks for the input. Among other manufacturers, I am looking at Honda products myself and they do solve the wind noise, diesel engine noise from cold start and too soon to tell for certain, but seems also solve transmission problem.

Before I bought my first of 4 Lexus, I bought Honda products for years.

ESDragon

Bob and MD, I understand your frustration with your ES, but I do want to say that Honda/Acura do share their own problems too. Take a look at Acurazine.com and read some of the posts in the problems and fixes section and you will get quite a handful of owners complaining from rattles, wind noise to transmission problems.

Here is a direct link to the TL discussion board: http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23

ES350Bob

I saw where you had indicated your TL made it to 26,000 miles before a trans issue.

Honestly, twice now with the ES I never got to enjoy the new car experience, 26,000 miles would at least allow me that as opposed to 200 miles before a trans issue says hello with ES as you are aware.

Then there is the diesel engine noise, that's a major nuisance.

The Honda that completely shocked me was the Acccord V6 EXL that a friend insisted I check out. ZERO wind noise, ZERO diesel engine knocking tapping from cold start on two of them I drove, a smooth ride, faster pickup and more responsive braking than my ES, I guess due to drive by wire limitations in the ES, who knows?? Shocking a car at what 9,000 $$ less can be offered without the wind and diesel engine noise, transmission is an unknown as to might it or not have some issue associated.

And a psychdoc warning...stay away from the Accord dealer, keyless entry, key required ignition, and that important electric seat sweet spot for the seatback upright position...LOL

MD350

Honda did have some tranny issues, but they handled it well and replaced it to fix the issue. At Lexus, they deny the issue and have no fix. Poor customer service.

Yeah, my TL had a rattle here and there, but the ES is worse.
Bob, I agree. A 2007 Accord EX-L V-6 is under $25K at invoice. A steal compared to what I paid for the Lexus ES350 TDI.

onsknht

Keep in mind that A LOT of the postings on Acurazine include 2nd and 1st generation TLs... More often than not I've started to respond to posts over there then I notice "2nd Generation" at the top of the page. Most of these owners are under 25 years of age and they offer no real appraisal other than the fact they spent upwards of $15-20K for a used car that's a few years old.

Then there's the current 3rd generation TL and again, there have been significant improvements over the years... The 2004 I guess is a rattle trap, my 2006 is super solid and there are many on Acurazine who will point out this distinction. I've seen a few threads over there where someone will fly in saying they're about ready to buy and the Gen 2 and early build Gen 3 guys are always the ones getting themselves in a bunch, here's the major gripes I've heard.

1. Rattle box 3rd gen TL vs. perfect 2nd gen TL
2. Crappy leather
3. Transmission failures (mostly 2nd generation, but I understand there's been bleed over into the early 3rd generation)
4. Not enough or too expensive performance parts

I am not trying to shill Honda on a Lexus board.... All I'm saying is read the surrounding context the TL has been around since 1996 and there's no major distinction in the name "TL" so all the issues kind of blend together between the years.

ESsearch

I hope someone with a voice within Lexus watches this board. It is freaking ridiculous how many threads are on what we should have bought or what non-Lexus product we will buy next. I have been on message boards for other makes and never have seen anything like this. Lexus management should be embarassed.

Pete

ES350Bob

They do read it Pete, several do, judging by the lack of understanding of what ails the transmission to this day and no TSIB on knocking tapping engine noise and wind noise this length of time, it is not being reacted upon in any timely fashion.