Still No TSIB, Trade Or Buyback/Lemon Law?
03-25-07, 01:30 PM
#16
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I drove the new 07 G35, a VERY nice car, unfortunately 
that was the dealer whose sales manager was schooled on defects my car had when he called with my VIN tried to get me more money for my trade, all of those "normal charcateristics" were listed to him as defects under the common phrase "the car has issues" the trade got worse, not better. That is why it is not wise to bring up wind noise or engine noise or anything members report they are turned away on to have them show on service record, because they are defects later held against you.
that was the dealer whose sales manager was schooled on defects my car had when he called with my VIN tried to get me more money for my trade, all of those "normal charcateristics" were listed to him as defects under the common phrase "the car has issues" the trade got worse, not better. That is why it is not wise to bring up wind noise or engine noise or anything members report they are turned away on to have them show on service record, because they are defects later held against you.
I don't understand....so when you bring your es350 as a trade in at a non-Lexus dealer, the non-Lexus dealer can pull your es350 vehicle history for warranty claims by your VIN?
To me, it would make more sense to hold Lexus responsible with written complaints about the defects in your es350 so you can get a buyback. If the buyback is denied or still pending, you can still try and document your complaints with your local dealership and pursue your state's lemon laws. At any time during this process if you want to give up and trade your car in for a different car, you can always try trading your car in at a non-Lexus dealership and they won't know of your complaints.
03-25-07, 01:41 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
I don't understand....so when you bring your es350 as a trade in at a non-Lexus dealer, the non-Lexus dealer can pull your es350 vehicle history for warranty claims by your VIN?
To me, it would make more sense to hold Lexus responsible with written complaints about the defects in your es350 so you can get a buyback. If the buyback is denied or still pending, you can still try and document your complaints with your local dealership and pursue your state's lemon laws. At any time during this process if you want to give up and trade your car in for a different car, you can always try trading your car in at a non-Lexus dealership and they won't know of your complaints.
To me, it would make more sense to hold Lexus responsible with written complaints about the defects in your es350 so you can get a buyback. If the buyback is denied or still pending, you can still try and document your complaints with your local dealership and pursue your state's lemon laws. At any time during this process if you want to give up and trade your car in for a different car, you can always try trading your car in at a non-Lexus dealership and they won't know of your complaints.
This is how it works. You go to service to get your excessive wind noise and diesel engine knocking tapping addressed, you are turned away with bizarre excuses and claims they are somehow normal.
As actual example: When Infiniti dealer calls Lexus dealer with VIN # to get a purchase offer because they are trying to get you to buy their Infiniti and want top dollar to tell you they will give you for your Lexus, Lexus dealer runs the service history on your car and those normal things are only then viewed by Lexus as what they were the whole time, DEFECTS and they devalue the trade offer and of course share them with the Infiniti dealer who then makes your trade offer even less.
Add being told the transmission is learning as was the case with my prior car and the three defects are used against your car by Lexus dealer when they assign purchase amount they will give for the car.
You lose no matter what if you dare bring up defects to service department with these three issues appearing on your service history at time of assigning trade value.
03-25-07, 01:54 PM
#18
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2007...
This is how it works. You go to service to get your excessive wind noise and diesel engine knocking tapping addressed, you are turned away with bizarre excuses and claims they are somehow normal.
As actual example: When Infiniti dealer calls Lexus dealer with VIN # to get a purchase offer because they are trying to get you to buy their Infiniti and want top dollar to tell you they will give you for your Lexus, Lexus dealer runs the service history on your car and those normal things are only then viewed by Lexus as what they were the whole time, DEFECTS and they devalue the trade offer and of course share them with the Infiniti dealer who then makes your trade offer even less.
Add being told the transmission is learning as was the case with my prior car and the three defects are used against your car by Lexus dealer when they assign purchase amount they will give for the car.
You lose no matter what if you dare bring up defects to service department with these three issues appearing on your service history at time of assigning trade value.
This is how it works. You go to service to get your excessive wind noise and diesel engine knocking tapping addressed, you are turned away with bizarre excuses and claims they are somehow normal.
As actual example: When Infiniti dealer calls Lexus dealer with VIN # to get a purchase offer because they are trying to get you to buy their Infiniti and want top dollar to tell you they will give you for your Lexus, Lexus dealer runs the service history on your car and those normal things are only then viewed by Lexus as what they were the whole time, DEFECTS and they devalue the trade offer and of course share them with the Infiniti dealer who then makes your trade offer even less.
Add being told the transmission is learning as was the case with my prior car and the three defects are used against your car by Lexus dealer when they assign purchase amount they will give for the car.
You lose no matter what if you dare bring up defects to service department with these three issues appearing on your service history at time of assigning trade value.
I don't see how your complaints would devalue your es350 when the Lexus dealership claims that your car is working perfectly. The report may make you seem like an overly picky owner that has unrealistic expectations...but I still don't see how this makes your es350 a POS when the car is still under warranty and backed by Lexus. I'm sure your Infiniti dealership is just trying to avoid paying you top dollar for your trade. Either way, I think you will suffer a substantial loss on trading your used es350.
Personally, I would rather find a way to make Lexus responsible instead of taking a heavy loss as a used car trade in. And you can't ask Lexus to buyback your car or even qualify under the Lemon Law until you address these problems with Lexus and/or your dealer. It is a catch-22 but there is no way around it.
If you do want to trade your es350, you should do it asap. Your car will only lose more value with time and mileage.
Good Luck with either choice.
03-25-07, 02:03 PM
#19
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Bob - Again I feel the same. When they told me they would not offer a buyback, I was pissed and my first reaction was, I'll show those bastards what an injustice this is! You are right, this is so wrong and they should take responsibility. But after cooling off, I decided to keep my emotions out of the decision and evaluate where I stood:
1) I probably could force a buyback but to what end? Another ES almost certainly would have the transaxle slip and might have other issues I currently do not have.
2) Even with the cash back I have not found any other vehicle in the ES price range with the same features I wanted. I personally do not want to invest $50k or more in a car.
3) Lexus will likely not offer any support (price reduction) for me to move to a GS and I will not reward Lexus by paying a great deal more money to get into a GS.
4) If I wanted a GS I would have bought one the first time.
5) My ES is everything I wanted and hoped for with the exception of the slip. The slip is minor and only when cold. I can live with it. It is not right, not fair, nor what I would expect in a $40k plus vehicle, but I can live with it.
6) This whole experience has diminished the new car excitement and my pride of ownership. It has totally changed my opinion of what Lexus is as a corporation and how they value their customers.
This will catch up with Lexus at some point. Loss of reputation, class action suit, and diminished sales. It just won't happen in any timely manner for me. However when asked, I will share my experience with others and over time Lexus will suffer for it's arrogance.
Pete
1) I probably could force a buyback but to what end? Another ES almost certainly would have the transaxle slip and might have other issues I currently do not have.
2) Even with the cash back I have not found any other vehicle in the ES price range with the same features I wanted. I personally do not want to invest $50k or more in a car.
3) Lexus will likely not offer any support (price reduction) for me to move to a GS and I will not reward Lexus by paying a great deal more money to get into a GS.
4) If I wanted a GS I would have bought one the first time.
5) My ES is everything I wanted and hoped for with the exception of the slip. The slip is minor and only when cold. I can live with it. It is not right, not fair, nor what I would expect in a $40k plus vehicle, but I can live with it.
6) This whole experience has diminished the new car excitement and my pride of ownership. It has totally changed my opinion of what Lexus is as a corporation and how they value their customers.
This will catch up with Lexus at some point. Loss of reputation, class action suit, and diminished sales. It just won't happen in any timely manner for me. However when asked, I will share my experience with others and over time Lexus will suffer for it's arrogance.
Pete
I forgot about loss of new car experience, first was worse than second, a real downer first morning of owning a new car, and only partial experience in second for the duration of time I convinced myself just as oso said he did that the thing was not slipping...LOL.
I think the wore me down applies to me too on some level with a slight fight back rally last night and this morning, but first experience with former car was on it's own a total confusing nightmare to deal with and feel I'm not up for it again, that and to what end ??? as you pointed out.
I'm a 4th time owner, you a first time owner, wanderer a first time owner, others, yet 4th or 1st time ownership of a Lexus, all treated the same.
03-25-07, 02:10 PM
#20
When I purchased our 2007 Impala SS, one of the local Chevrolet dealers called the Lincoln Mercury dealer in our small city and low and behold, their value of my 2004 Lincoln LS went down due to the comments by this dealer and to the real wholesale value of the Lincoln LS along with the comments of the bodywork done and problems with electric gremlins that just got resolved for the time being. The dealer I bought the Impala from just used the current wholesale value from Kelly Blue Book for the car.
03-25-07, 02:16 PM
#22
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03-25-07, 02:18 PM
#23
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When I purchased our 2007 Impala SS, one of the local Chevrolet dealers called the Lincoln Mercury dealer in our small city and low and behold, their value of my 2004 Lincoln LS went down due to the comments by this dealer and to the real wholesale value of the Lincoln LS along with the comments of the bodywork done and problems with electric gremlins that just got resolved for the time being. The dealer I bought the Impala from just used the current wholesale value from Kelly Blue Book for the car.
That is what they do, on a Lexus it is normal for them to get your VIN and call Lexus dealer for two reasons, it helps establish you actually own the car because Lexus dealer also shows you do own it and they get a heads up from the Lexus dealer on the value of the car as trade allowance.
Lexus dealers do view defects like trans issues, diesel engine complaints etc. as negatives, just not when you bought the car from them...LOL
03-25-07, 03:24 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
gars and 2007.
That is what they do, on a Lexus it is normal for them to get your VIN and call Lexus dealer for two reasons, it helps establish you actually own the car because Lexus dealer also shows you do own it and they get a heads up from the Lexus dealer on the value of the car as trade allowance.
Lexus dealers do view defects like trans issues, diesel engine complaints etc. as negatives, just not when you bought the car from them...LOL
That is what they do, on a Lexus it is normal for them to get your VIN and call Lexus dealer for two reasons, it helps establish you actually own the car because Lexus dealer also shows you do own it and they get a heads up from the Lexus dealer on the value of the car as trade allowance.
Lexus dealers do view defects like trans issues, diesel engine complaints etc. as negatives, just not when you bought the car from them...LOL
I've been in car business for almost 20 years and I've never seen the sale consultant or the manager call up another dealer on the trade in especially the car that still under bumper to bumper warranty like your car. They just look up the KBB and look around the car for any body damage and test drive..that's all. Most of the newer car don't get good trade in because they don't know what to go by, for example KBB don't list it yet, no previous trade in, or don't see any of them at the auction.
If another dealer can low ball you, then they can sell at higher price with the sticker say " Warranty".
03-25-07, 03:54 PM
#25
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I think another dealer just try to low ball you on the trade in..that's all. I don't think they'll have time to call Lexus dealer and talk about your car.
I've been in car business for almost 20 years and I've never seen the sale consultant or the manager call up another dealer on the trade in especially the car that still under bumper to bumper warranty like your car. They just look up the KBB and look around the car for any body damage and test drive..that's all. Most of the newer car don't get good trade in because they don't know what to go by, for example KBB don't list it yet, no previous trade in, or don't see any of them at the auction.
If another dealer can low ball you, then they can sell at higher price with the sticker say " Warranty".
I've been in car business for almost 20 years and I've never seen the sale consultant or the manager call up another dealer on the trade in especially the car that still under bumper to bumper warranty like your car. They just look up the KBB and look around the car for any body damage and test drive..that's all. Most of the newer car don't get good trade in because they don't know what to go by, for example KBB don't list it yet, no previous trade in, or don't see any of them at the auction.
If another dealer can low ball you, then they can sell at higher price with the sticker say " Warranty".
For some reason they do it here and jj posted he always runs the service history when a Lexus is available for purchase offered to him. Here, before they give you a price, they ask for the VIN or go out and write it down.
In my case they--Infiniti dealer did call Lexus dealer to try to bargain a better trade allowance for me. An acquaintance of mine is a MB sales manager and he says that is standard.
03-25-07, 04:02 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
For some reason they do it here and jj posted he always runs the service history when a Lexus is available for purchase offered to him. Here, before they give you a price, they ask for the VIN or go out and write it down.
In my case they--Infiniti dealer did call Lexus dealer to try to bargain a better trade allowance for me. An acquaintance of mine is a MB sales manager and he says that is standard.
In my case they--Infiniti dealer did call Lexus dealer to try to bargain a better trade allowance for me. An acquaintance of mine is a MB sales manager and he says that is standard.
I don't understand. the infitinti dealer tried to get you a HIGHER price for your car? and the lexus dealer was undervaluing it?
03-25-07, 04:06 PM
#27
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jj is at a lexus dealership....so when he gets a lexus on trade, i'm sure he would run the history. i think your infiniti dealership is just trying to make a larger profit.
03-25-07, 04:29 PM
#28
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Thread Starter
Yes, due to "issues" my car had which were otherwise supposedly normal. While you are told wind noise or diesel engine noise is normal they sure know it is not normal at all in one when it comes time to assign a price they will pay for an ES when called.
Seriously 2007, they do call each other here with VIN, which is asked for by dealer before making an offer to the calling dealer. Usually it's the used car manager making these kinds of calls but I know of 3 sales managers that make them, jj, my MB acquaintance and the Infiniti sales manager.
Seems dealer to dealer might get a few hundred more than just offering a customer a trade figure based on a guess per the wholesale or auction trade value, plus they don't want to keep a used car on their lot any longer than they have to so getting a purchase agreement from a Lexus dealer is something they will do. It seems very routine from what I now understand.
Also it is a red flag to be trading a brand new car so that may be part of the reason too though when I bought first ES350 Lexus dealer called MB dealer about my MB trade and provided MB dealer my VIN.
03-25-07, 07:29 PM
#29
Lexus Champion
Yes, due to "issues" my car had which were otherwise supposedly normal. While you are told wind noise or diesel engine noise is normal they sure know it is not normal at all in one when it comes time to assign a price they will pay for an ES when called.
Seriously 2007, they do call each other here with VIN, which is asked for by dealer before making an offer to the calling dealer. Usually it's the used car manager making these kinds of calls but I know of 3 sales managers that make them, jj, my MB acquaintance and the Infiniti sales manager.
Seems dealer to dealer might get a few hundred more than just offering a customer a trade figure based on a guess per the wholesale or auction trade value, plus they don't want to keep a used car on their lot any longer than they have to so getting a purchase agreement from a Lexus dealer is something they will do. It seems very routine from what I now understand.
Also it is a red flag to be trading a brand new car so that may be part of the reason too though when I bought first ES350 Lexus dealer called MB dealer about my MB trade and provided MB dealer my VIN.
Seriously 2007, they do call each other here with VIN, which is asked for by dealer before making an offer to the calling dealer. Usually it's the used car manager making these kinds of calls but I know of 3 sales managers that make them, jj, my MB acquaintance and the Infiniti sales manager.
Seems dealer to dealer might get a few hundred more than just offering a customer a trade figure based on a guess per the wholesale or auction trade value, plus they don't want to keep a used car on their lot any longer than they have to so getting a purchase agreement from a Lexus dealer is something they will do. It seems very routine from what I now understand.
Also it is a red flag to be trading a brand new car so that may be part of the reason too though when I bought first ES350 Lexus dealer called MB dealer about my MB trade and provided MB dealer my VIN.
Well, those "Issues" may be not normal to you,but the next owner may not even notice them. Thier business is to get the most money out of you and they don't care about the new/next owner, if the new owner complaint about your car they will tell them go to Lexus " It's still under warranty", Off their hands...period.
I got the same problem with my 2001 GS430 after I'd read about the shimmy on CL . After that I started to noticed that shimmy around 60-65 mph, which I'd never notice it before,but anyway I did.
Again, when I got 2006 GS430 and I read on CL about the rattle around the dash area, so I started to listened for the rattle and
I heard it and fix it under the TSB. Oh, BTW, I'm Lexus tech for 10 years...
Now, I got an 2006 IS350 and I never log on or read on the IS forum...
you can ask DavdGS4 for that. I just don't care what everybody else complaint and I got all the access to Lexus TSB. I just enjoy my car and love every bit of it.The managers at the dealership may know each other from time to time or hang out together at the auction site in Orlando( I know my manager have to go to Orlanda twice a month). When they called each other they may talked about the car and then some....
03-26-07, 12:02 AM
#30
IMHO the transmission flare is the only potentially legitimate mechanical issue with some of the ES350's that might be causing higher than normal internal clutch slippage type wear. Here again no one to my knowledge has taken off the oil pan of one of these transmissions to see if the wear is real or imaginary. In any case, since it seems reasonable to assume the flare is probably causing at least a slightly higher rate of internal mechanical wear it seems likely Toyota will eventually address it. I cannot think of any case in Toyota's history where Toyota failed to eventually admit and fix a mechanical fault / defect that resulted in premature wear of an internally lubricated part of a drivetrain component. (the 2002-2006 ES transmission hesistation amf mentions was any annoyance that had to do with emissions certication - the hesitation did not affect transmission durability which has been outstanding according to Consumer Reports).