Will Lexus Ever Design A Tranny And Engine That Act Like They Know One Another?...
02-01-07, 05:27 PM
#46
Neo,
It would seem to me that a Lexus enthusiast would never tell a current Lexus owner to ditch the car, even at a loss to them, and go to a competing manufacturer and certainly not over something that can be corrected, there is something not quite right about that picture.
It would seem to me that a Lexus enthusiast would never tell a current Lexus owner to ditch the car, even at a loss to them, and go to a competing manufacturer and certainly not over something that can be corrected, there is something not quite right about that picture.
With that said, foremost, I am a person. As a person, if I was SO annoyed by a product that I need to spend time on an online forum attacking it, I must also be thinking about it in my daily life. I would be annoyed every time I see my car, every time I drive my car, and every time I see the car on the road. I would prefer not to have to deal with that and would sell the car to get something that would not bug me so much. With work, spouse, kids, extended family, bills, ... and/or just life, I have enough to juggle without having the car added to it. If this car is the best I can do, then I will live with my decision.
Again, this is what I would do so I suggested it as a solution. Maybe some of you have higher thresholds for being annoyed.
The only reason why I brought up the "Lexus enthusiast" comment is because that is what CL is about. I respect that this site will have a membership that enjoys Lexus vehicles. I come here knowing that and I do not insult their interest as being "fanboys" or "zealots" or "blind faithfuls" or "biased against other cars". To a certain extent, there is a hint of truth in it or else the members would be hanging out somewhere else. CL is what it is.
For example, I do not go into a catholic church and tell them Buddism is better at certain aspects. It is besides the point which religion is better at what.
Disclaimer: Please do not read too much into my example that car enthusiast sites are like brand religions. It was only an example. Nothing more.
As for the problem being fixable, if you are talking about the flare, then I can see Lexus trying to deal with it. If it is the hesitation, maybe they know and that is how they tailor the car to suit the 90% of their consumers. If the 10% do not like it, it is an acceptable loss. If you are in that 10%, then I agree it sucks for you. This is a completely hypothetical interpretation on my part. Like I said earlier, I do not presume to speak for Lexus or what they have in mind. The 10% is also made up to represent a small but not insignificant number.
Maybe it is fixable but then it would aggravate the 90%. For the 10%, you would probably say "Why would anyone in their right mind would want this occasional hesitation?" Maybe some do or don't mind in order for the algorithm to give them the ride that is there 99% of the time when the hesitation is not there.
Lexus is a business. To be a successful business, you have to know where your strengths are and know where to cut your losses. You will not please everyone all the time. Lexus is successful and have made decisions to help them get there. Lexus has to draw the line somewhere. If you are in the minority that have had bad experiences with Lexus, I agree it sucks. I say minority because if it was not a minority, I doubt Lexus would be the company it is today.
02-01-07, 05:47 PM
#47
Lexus Champion
I am not a hard core enthusiast. I enjoy the environment and the members on CL and like being here and helping to maintain it
With that said, foremost, I am a person. As a person, if I was SO annoyed by a product that I need to spend time on an online forum attacking it, I must also be thinking about it in my daily life. I would be annoyed every time I see my car, every time I drive my car, and every time I see the car on the road. I would prefer not to have to deal with that and would sell the car to get something that would not bug me so much. With work, spouse, kids, extended family, bills, ... and/or just life, I have enough to juggle without having the car added to it. If this car is the best I can do, then I will live with my decision.
Again, this is what I would do so I suggested it as a solution. Maybe some of you have higher thresholds for being annoyed.
The only reason why I brought up the "Lexus enthusiast" comment is because that is what CL is about. I respect that this site will have a membership that enjoys Lexus vehicles. I come here knowing that and I do not insult their interest as being "fanboys" or "zealots" or "blind faithfuls" or "biased against other cars". To a certain extent, there is a hint of truth in it or else the members would be hanging out somewhere else. CL is what it is.
For example, I do not go into a catholic church and tell them Buddism is better at certain aspects. It is besides the point which religion is better at what.
Disclaimer: Please do not read too much into my example that car enthusiast sites are like brand religions. It was only an example. Nothing more.
As for the problem being fixable, if you are talking about the flare, then I can see Lexus trying to deal with it. If it is the hesitation, maybe they know and that is how they tailor the car to suit the 90% of their consumers. If the 10% do not like it, it is an acceptable loss. If you are in that 10%, then I agree it sucks for you. This is a completely hypothetical interpretation on my part. Like I said earlier, I do not presume to speak for Lexus or what they have in mind. The 10% is also made up to represent a small but not insignificant number.
Maybe it is fixable but then it would aggravate the 90%. For the 10%, you would probably say "Why would anyone in their right mind would want this occasional hesitation?" Maybe some do or don't mind in order for the algorithm to give them the ride that is there 99% of the time when the hesitation is not there.
Lexus is a business. To be a successful business, you have to know where your strengths are and know where to cut your losses. You will not please everyone all the time. Lexus is successful and have made decisions to help them get there. Lexus has to draw the line somewhere. If you are in the minority that have had bad experiences with Lexus, I agree it sucks. I say minority because if it was not a minority, I doubt Lexus would be the company it is today.
With that said, foremost, I am a person. As a person, if I was SO annoyed by a product that I need to spend time on an online forum attacking it, I must also be thinking about it in my daily life. I would be annoyed every time I see my car, every time I drive my car, and every time I see the car on the road. I would prefer not to have to deal with that and would sell the car to get something that would not bug me so much. With work, spouse, kids, extended family, bills, ... and/or just life, I have enough to juggle without having the car added to it. If this car is the best I can do, then I will live with my decision.
Again, this is what I would do so I suggested it as a solution. Maybe some of you have higher thresholds for being annoyed.
The only reason why I brought up the "Lexus enthusiast" comment is because that is what CL is about. I respect that this site will have a membership that enjoys Lexus vehicles. I come here knowing that and I do not insult their interest as being "fanboys" or "zealots" or "blind faithfuls" or "biased against other cars". To a certain extent, there is a hint of truth in it or else the members would be hanging out somewhere else. CL is what it is.
For example, I do not go into a catholic church and tell them Buddism is better at certain aspects. It is besides the point which religion is better at what.
Disclaimer: Please do not read too much into my example that car enthusiast sites are like brand religions. It was only an example. Nothing more.
As for the problem being fixable, if you are talking about the flare, then I can see Lexus trying to deal with it. If it is the hesitation, maybe they know and that is how they tailor the car to suit the 90% of their consumers. If the 10% do not like it, it is an acceptable loss. If you are in that 10%, then I agree it sucks for you. This is a completely hypothetical interpretation on my part. Like I said earlier, I do not presume to speak for Lexus or what they have in mind. The 10% is also made up to represent a small but not insignificant number.
Maybe it is fixable but then it would aggravate the 90%. For the 10%, you would probably say "Why would anyone in their right mind would want this occasional hesitation?" Maybe some do or don't mind in order for the algorithm to give them the ride that is there 99% of the time when the hesitation is not there.
Lexus is a business. To be a successful business, you have to know where your strengths are and know where to cut your losses. You will not please everyone all the time. Lexus is successful and have made decisions to help them get there. Lexus has to draw the line somewhere. If you are in the minority that have had bad experiences with Lexus, I agree it sucks. I say minority because if it was not a minority, I doubt Lexus would be the company it is today.
It seems like it has been irritating customers for quite some time and yes I was talking about the hesitation being correctable as you no doubt may have seen I suggested psych tell his service manager about it. If the right people do not know it is still present in the ES350 they cannot do anything about it. Even Toyota takes forum input seriously from folks like psych and have been known to change software as a result of complaints about issues they read on forums rather than just tell people to live with it or ditch the car.
02-01-07, 06:53 PM
#48
Lexus is like any other company. They build a product and based on history and testing know the MTBF (mean time before failures). Accordingly they staff up to support customer issues through dealer networks, parts, etc.
However, when you build a lot of product, in this case the Camry/ES, and an issue pops up that affects a lot of customers, this is unexpected and not planned for. As a result the dealer networks are flooded, Lexus customer service is flooded.
So when you go into a dealer, even if they know you need a new tranny, the reality is they may not have one for some time. So they try other steps to appease the issue.
Would it be better if Lexus said we have a tranny problem and will have it resolved in 6-9 months. How many would wait?
Acura/Honda replaced bad trannys with bad trannys for quite a while before they got a new tranny that held up. They had no other recourse.
I believe an issue like the ES tranny problem will be resolved, but in 12-24 months after its release. So early 2007-2008 we should see a solid tranny.
I know folks want things fixed right now, but I think it is unrealistic as so many people, manaufacturers, etc are involved. In addition there could be more than one issue that needs to be resolved. i.e. programming and parts.
However, when you build a lot of product, in this case the Camry/ES, and an issue pops up that affects a lot of customers, this is unexpected and not planned for. As a result the dealer networks are flooded, Lexus customer service is flooded.
So when you go into a dealer, even if they know you need a new tranny, the reality is they may not have one for some time. So they try other steps to appease the issue.
Would it be better if Lexus said we have a tranny problem and will have it resolved in 6-9 months. How many would wait?
Acura/Honda replaced bad trannys with bad trannys for quite a while before they got a new tranny that held up. They had no other recourse.
I believe an issue like the ES tranny problem will be resolved, but in 12-24 months after its release. So early 2007-2008 we should see a solid tranny.
I know folks want things fixed right now, but I think it is unrealistic as so many people, manaufacturers, etc are involved. In addition there could be more than one issue that needs to be resolved. i.e. programming and parts.
02-01-07, 07:18 PM
#49
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I believe an issue like the ES tranny problem will be resolved, but in 12-24 months after its release. So early 2007-2008 we should see a solid tranny.
I know folks want things fixed right now, but I think it is unrealistic as so many people, manaufacturers, etc are involved. In addition there could be more than one issue that needs to be resolved. i.e. programming and parts.
I know folks want things fixed right now, but I think it is unrealistic as so many people, manaufacturers, etc are involved. In addition there could be more than one issue that needs to be resolved. i.e. programming and parts.
02-01-07, 07:22 PM
#50
Lexus's track record is not good. Consumers have been suffering with horrible 5-speed transmissions for years. Their only solution is bandaid ECM flashes that made the trans perform even worse! They are now suffering with lousy 6-speed transmissions. Your 12-24 month estimate remains to be seen.
Keep in mind, a tranny slip/flare is an issue. A preference as to how a tranny should shift is not. So I want to be clear as what is actually a problem and what is a preference.
02-01-07, 09:18 PM
#52
Pole Position
Just one place where a company had tranny problems. Check the Acura forums, for years they complained about tranny FAILURES (complete failures, sometimes 3 or 4 times) and Honda finally issued a 100k warrenty on the Acura CL/TL and I believe Odyessy, Accord and other cars. They never admitted fault or issued a recall even though the probem was much larger than the 5 or 6 people here. They admited to a 3% failure rate, which Acura owners thought was way to low.
So before you jump to conclusions, read up a little
So before you jump to conclusions, read up a little
To all of you out there who are reading this and are thinking of buying an ES350, you need to know that the problem ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY is not limited to 5 or 6 people on this forum. How widespread is the problem? I really don't know. Is the number of problems limited to a small percentage of cars built? I don't know the answer to that either. I do know this, though. Don't take my word for it. Don't take 1SICK's word for it either. Instead, as 1SICK says, "Before you jump to conclusions, read up a little."
As for you 1SICK, if you want to censor my comments, fine, go ahead. If you want to ban me, sure, why not. I just can't stand idly by any longer when you keep repeating the same pro-Lexus rhetoric that just flat out is not true.
e
02-01-07, 11:11 PM
#53
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e-man
Those 5-6 people must really be busy. They had their POS ES350's replaced due to transmission replacement downtime and are now on sale on ebay. Moreover, they forced Lexus to issue various TSB's, aimed at trying (unsuccessfully) to fix an on-going transmission problem and so on ad nauseum. However, these facts are wasted on our esteemed mod. Anyone reading this forum can make up their own minds about what is really going on here.
Those 5-6 people must really be busy. They had their POS ES350's replaced due to transmission replacement downtime and are now on sale on ebay. Moreover, they forced Lexus to issue various TSB's, aimed at trying (unsuccessfully) to fix an on-going transmission problem and so on ad nauseum. However, these facts are wasted on our esteemed mod. Anyone reading this forum can make up their own minds about what is really going on here.
02-02-07, 04:04 AM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
1SICK -- I always start my posts to you with the comment "With all due respect," but I'm through doing that because of your statement above (in bold). Come now, 1SICK. Are you really that blind to the posts WE'VE ALL BEEN READING over the last several months? Anyone who regularly reads the threads on the ES350 forum knows, without a doubt, that the ES350 trans/slip problem is not limited to 5 or 6 people on this forum. You know it, I know it, and anyone who has taken the time to read through this forum knows it. I don't normally get worked up over stuff like this. Heck, I don't even own an ES350. But I believe that being a moderator comes with certain responsibilities, and one of them is objectivity, and you, my friend, just don't have it (at least when it comes to this issue).
To all of you out there who are reading this and are thinking of buying an ES350, you need to know that the problem ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY is not limited to 5 or 6 people on this forum. How widespread is the problem? I really don't know. Is the number of problems limited to a small percentage of cars built? I don't know the answer to that either. I do know this, though. Don't take my word for it. Don't take 1SICK's word for it either. Instead, as 1SICK says, "Before you jump to conclusions, read up a little."
As for you 1SICK, if you want to censor my comments, fine, go ahead. If you want to ban me, sure, why not. I just can't stand idly by any longer when you keep repeating the same pro-Lexus rhetoric that just flat out is not true.
e
To all of you out there who are reading this and are thinking of buying an ES350, you need to know that the problem ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY is not limited to 5 or 6 people on this forum. How widespread is the problem? I really don't know. Is the number of problems limited to a small percentage of cars built? I don't know the answer to that either. I do know this, though. Don't take my word for it. Don't take 1SICK's word for it either. Instead, as 1SICK says, "Before you jump to conclusions, read up a little."
As for you 1SICK, if you want to censor my comments, fine, go ahead. If you want to ban me, sure, why not. I just can't stand idly by any longer when you keep repeating the same pro-Lexus rhetoric that just flat out is not true.
e
Now, having said that, Lexus HAS had some minor transmission issues...and those issues have not been limited to ES models. My 2001 IS300 had a mild, occasional slip/flare on the 2-3 upshift at all fluid temperatures, and the 1-2 upshift was harsh when cold....smooth as butter when warm.
What both the 2001-2002 IS and several different ES models had was also not a "flare"' per se but a condition that produced a remarked lack of acceleratrion from a rolling start at low speeds...not a dead stop. This was due primarily to a glitch in emissions programming in the computer software for both the engine and tranny...it allowed the engine to rev but the tranny did not respond for several seconds. It did NOT affect the car from a dead stop, when acceleration was normal.
However, most of what 1SICK has said about Lexus products is true. Although the new ES350, IMO, is somewhat of a disappointment for several reasons ( and I'm written much about this on CL ), Lexus, in general, has far better build quality than most German manufacturers.
02-02-07, 04:49 AM
#56
Lexus Fanatic
I recently had an ES350 loaner and it was perfect. It had an 06/06 build date and 8k miles. I beat on it in manual shift mode and let it shift itself and it never slipped for a second. I listened closely on cold start in morning and didn't hear a thing nor did the trans flare when cold. It had no abnormal wind noise either.
Do some ES350s have issues? Sure.
Did the one I drove have problems? No
Will Lexus stand behind their product & work out these issues? Of course.
I'm sure Lexus will figure out what's going on and take care of it. It will be covered with zero cost to owner. These things can be expected from first year models of new cars, when it breaks, they'll fix it.
I have no doubt the ES350 is by far the best ES produced and I have driven many ES's from my 95 ES300 I owned for years to multiple ES300 and ES330 loaners. It's faster, smoother and quieter than any ES before.
Do some ES350s have issues? Sure.
Did the one I drove have problems? No
Will Lexus stand behind their product & work out these issues? Of course.
I'm sure Lexus will figure out what's going on and take care of it. It will be covered with zero cost to owner. These things can be expected from first year models of new cars, when it breaks, they'll fix it.
I have no doubt the ES350 is by far the best ES produced and I have driven many ES's from my 95 ES300 I owned for years to multiple ES300 and ES330 loaners. It's faster, smoother and quieter than any ES before.
02-02-07, 06:09 AM
#57
Pole Position
Read my post carefully. I never said 1SICK was an idiot. Nor did I say that there are hundreds or even thousands of ES350 owners that have this problem. I am not a Lexus basher -- to the contrary, I think Lexus is a great company and I probably will never own another brand of car (I'm on my third as of today). I also think they will stand behind the product once they figure out what the problem is.
All I am saying is that the problem is not limited to the proverbial 5-6 people on this forum that 1SICK and some others are always referring to. I wish I had kept track of all the members who have reported this problem. I did not. However, I know it is much more than 5-6. I hesitate to put a number on it because I don't know the exact number. By the same token, though, someone like 1SICK in his position as moderator shouldn't be posting up information like he does as factual when it's clearly not true. I will agree that there are 5-6 CL members who are MORE VOCAL about this problem than others, but there are certainly MUCH, MUCH MORE than 5-6 CL members who have reported the problem.
All I am saying is that the problem is not limited to the proverbial 5-6 people on this forum that 1SICK and some others are always referring to. I wish I had kept track of all the members who have reported this problem. I did not. However, I know it is much more than 5-6. I hesitate to put a number on it because I don't know the exact number. By the same token, though, someone like 1SICK in his position as moderator shouldn't be posting up information like he does as factual when it's clearly not true. I will agree that there are 5-6 CL members who are MORE VOCAL about this problem than others, but there are certainly MUCH, MUCH MORE than 5-6 CL members who have reported the problem.
02-02-07, 06:10 AM
#58
Lexus Champion
Pearl, Mmarsh,
We have many members who actually own the ES350 report one or more problems with their car, in fact currently less than 1/3rd report receiving their vehicle at delivery without a problem, more than 2/3rd report problems. Pearl, yes we have polled and find below the results, the transmission slipping is affecting a lot of owners, more revealing is the 2nd replacement transmissions failing for many.
Chuck...MD350 can give a different experience with a loaner, as can many others here, myself included, but he in particular experienced what a transmission flare is in a loaner. We also have many of our members report Lexus has not stood behind them, not stepped up and resolved issues even with transmissions, add wind and diesel engine noise also.
It would be nice though if we can get this thread back on topic as these "few" or sales volume, other claims are simply an off topic disruption that is placed in many issue threads on here and I believe they do nothing to add to the resolutions or suggestions of what to do about an issue possible from a collection of actual owners in contrast to what comes across, intentioned or not, as corporate PR hype from those who do not even own an ES350 which is what I believe e-man addressed.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236162
View Poll Results: Multiple Choice: What problems do you have with your 2007 ES350?
Transmission shift flaring 37 26.81%
Cold engine start noise 27 19.57%
Wind noise 35 25.36%
Interior rattles 35 25.36%
Voice Recognition for climate control 30 21.74%
I have none of the problems listed above 42 30.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 138.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=250652
View Poll Results: Please indicate your ES350 transmission problem, concern by build month
Transmission Shift Flare Requiring Service 10 28.57%
Transmission seems erratic at times with a shift flare now and then, will observe for now 9 25.71%
02/06 Build 1 2.86%
03/06 Build 1 2.86%
04/06 Build 4 11.43%
05/06 Build 5 14.29%
06/06 Build 2 5.71%
07/06 Build 3 8.57%
08/06 Build 7 20.00%
09/06 Build 5 14.29%
10/06 Build 3 8.57%
11/06 Build 1 2.86%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 35.
We have many members who actually own the ES350 report one or more problems with their car, in fact currently less than 1/3rd report receiving their vehicle at delivery without a problem, more than 2/3rd report problems. Pearl, yes we have polled and find below the results, the transmission slipping is affecting a lot of owners, more revealing is the 2nd replacement transmissions failing for many.
Chuck...MD350 can give a different experience with a loaner, as can many others here, myself included, but he in particular experienced what a transmission flare is in a loaner. We also have many of our members report Lexus has not stood behind them, not stepped up and resolved issues even with transmissions, add wind and diesel engine noise also.
It would be nice though if we can get this thread back on topic as these "few" or sales volume, other claims are simply an off topic disruption that is placed in many issue threads on here and I believe they do nothing to add to the resolutions or suggestions of what to do about an issue possible from a collection of actual owners in contrast to what comes across, intentioned or not, as corporate PR hype from those who do not even own an ES350 which is what I believe e-man addressed.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236162
View Poll Results: Multiple Choice: What problems do you have with your 2007 ES350?
Transmission shift flaring 37 26.81%
Cold engine start noise 27 19.57%
Wind noise 35 25.36%
Interior rattles 35 25.36%
Voice Recognition for climate control 30 21.74%
I have none of the problems listed above 42 30.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 138.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=250652
View Poll Results: Please indicate your ES350 transmission problem, concern by build month
Transmission Shift Flare Requiring Service 10 28.57%
Transmission seems erratic at times with a shift flare now and then, will observe for now 9 25.71%
02/06 Build 1 2.86%
03/06 Build 1 2.86%
04/06 Build 4 11.43%
05/06 Build 5 14.29%
06/06 Build 2 5.71%
07/06 Build 3 8.57%
08/06 Build 7 20.00%
09/06 Build 5 14.29%
10/06 Build 3 8.57%
11/06 Build 1 2.86%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 35.
02-02-07, 06:46 AM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
they will fix it when it breaks. if something only acts up sometimes, it's hard to fix a problem that's not apparent at the time the tech checks it out.
all I'm saying is you guys have 4 years of bumper to bumper warranty and up to 6 years/70k miles to get it fixed for free. don't sweat it.
02-02-07, 06:47 AM
#60
Lexus Champion
Pearl, this brings up a discussion that's been going on here for a while. With 70,000 or so ES350's sold to date (and many times more Camry's), how widespread are the transmission problems? Are there problems/issues - Yes. Are the owners with them disappointed and upset - Yes. Should they be when this happens -Yes. How widespread are these problems/issues in the BIG picture - IMO, we don't really know.