I want to buy an ES350 but...
#16
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Well part of the problem is that most test drives take place in the city, and people are busy testing out the radio etc, so they don't hear the noises during a test drive. Also the cars are normally not cold, since most dealers use the same cars over and over for test drives.
So to make a long story short, I checked my car over thoroughly before purchasing it but it didn't make a difference at all.
#17
Lexus Champion
These are the variables that you are talking about? If this is the case, why are we not seeing the same "variables" come up on the GS forum?
If that's the case, the wind noise would be an issue for me in my GS as well.
It appears that this is not the case with the wind noise and transmission issue.
I absolutely agree with you, these issues are more nuissance issues rather than total and complete failures that will leave you stranded on the road (ASFAIK the tranny issue has not led to total failures). The car is reliable in that respect but initial quality is a huge factor for me and this car is not what I would have expected from Lexus. The GS on the other hand has been more than I had expected. Go figure.
Toyota has pretty much done everything short of that. They have issues TSBs, replaced trannys, buybacks, halted their assembly line, and replaced their transmission supplier. I have a friend @ Lexus and know for fact that these tranny replacements and buybacks are real and becoming a huge issue for Lexus. Getting a bad tranny might be bad luck and I play absolutely no role in it's manufacturing and quality control process but Toyota plays a huge role in those factors and that is the issue. I see that Twister and ES350Bob have had satisfactory resolutions to their issues but those were facilitated in part or in whole by their respective dealerships, not by Lexus corp. I don't see how Lexus has stepped up to the plate to resolve these issues or come up with an effective fix for these problems.
Kaius, for the most part, I can appreciate what you are saying. You have a valid point but like I said. Are we giving this thread starter the straight poop when we say that the ES350 is a very reliable car and it's a 9.75 out of 10 and all of the reported problems are nonsense and can be attributed to "variables" and "bad luck". Also, is it appropriate to dismiss the problems that others are having by saying that these forums are places where people congregate to complain about their cars. There are issues with the car.
The original thread starter's post hits home with me. I am passionate about giving this person the straight poop. I joined these forums for the sole purpose of making a pre-purchase decision to buy an ES350. I saw the problems and dismissed them as a combination of bad luck and complaining by people who like to complain. Despite my best efforts, I ended up with a wind noise issue and I am almost certain that a transmission issue will develope that will ultimately lead to me selling this car. I even had the bad door alignment issue that is well documented on this forum. Fluke? I think not, it's more of a pattern. A common manufacturing issue that comes up over and over again. The wind noise is not in my mind either. I spend a lot of time behind the wheel of my GS. 5500 miles in 9 weeks to be exact and I just got home from a 2 hour drive @ 85-100mph. Trust me when I say that I know what wind noise from side view mirrors sounds like. Likewise, trust me when I say that I can hear wind noise in my ES.
If that's the case, the wind noise would be an issue for me in my GS as well.
It appears that this is not the case with the wind noise and transmission issue.
I absolutely agree with you, these issues are more nuissance issues rather than total and complete failures that will leave you stranded on the road (ASFAIK the tranny issue has not led to total failures). The car is reliable in that respect but initial quality is a huge factor for me and this car is not what I would have expected from Lexus. The GS on the other hand has been more than I had expected. Go figure.
Toyota has pretty much done everything short of that. They have issues TSBs, replaced trannys, buybacks, halted their assembly line, and replaced their transmission supplier. I have a friend @ Lexus and know for fact that these tranny replacements and buybacks are real and becoming a huge issue for Lexus. Getting a bad tranny might be bad luck and I play absolutely no role in it's manufacturing and quality control process but Toyota plays a huge role in those factors and that is the issue. I see that Twister and ES350Bob have had satisfactory resolutions to their issues but those were facilitated in part or in whole by their respective dealerships, not by Lexus corp. I don't see how Lexus has stepped up to the plate to resolve these issues or come up with an effective fix for these problems.
Kaius, for the most part, I can appreciate what you are saying. You have a valid point but like I said. Are we giving this thread starter the straight poop when we say that the ES350 is a very reliable car and it's a 9.75 out of 10 and all of the reported problems are nonsense and can be attributed to "variables" and "bad luck". Also, is it appropriate to dismiss the problems that others are having by saying that these forums are places where people congregate to complain about their cars. There are issues with the car.
The original thread starter's post hits home with me. I am passionate about giving this person the straight poop. I joined these forums for the sole purpose of making a pre-purchase decision to buy an ES350. I saw the problems and dismissed them as a combination of bad luck and complaining by people who like to complain. Despite my best efforts, I ended up with a wind noise issue and I am almost certain that a transmission issue will develope that will ultimately lead to me selling this car. I even had the bad door alignment issue that is well documented on this forum. Fluke? I think not, it's more of a pattern. A common manufacturing issue that comes up over and over again. The wind noise is not in my mind either. I spend a lot of time behind the wheel of my GS. 5500 miles in 9 weeks to be exact and I just got home from a 2 hour drive @ 85-100mph. Trust me when I say that I know what wind noise from side view mirrors sounds like. Likewise, trust me when I say that I can hear wind noise in my ES.
#18
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Just FWIW, I said I'd give MY car a 9.75 out of 10, not anyone else's. Trust me too when I say we recently completed a 2,500+ mile driving vacation and didn't experience the excessive wind noise problem, and I too know what wind noise sounds like. Are there problems/issues with some ES350's - Yes. Are there problems/issues with all ES350's - No.
A perfect example is the Airmatic pump on the GL450. A few people had some serious problems with airmatic pump failures on the GL450 when it was released. Did everyone have it? Absolutely not but MB did acknowledge that they had a bad batch of airmatic pumps from their supplier. Does the problem still exist? No, the pumps were replaced as necessary and the problems were rectified to everyone's satisfaction. Is this the same situation? No. If it were, none of these issues would be issues. These are problems with no solution. There is no fix and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
#19
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I didn't make any comments about people who visit forums, but it sounds like we do agree that anyone considering the purchase of any car, should review as much information as possible, if they choose to. My point was to provide balance from someone who hasn't experienced any problems with that of others who have. IMO, I don't know that we yet know the exact extent of the serious problems surfaced on this forum. They're definitely out there, no doubt, but to what degree. I see on Edmunds 80 consumers have rated the car 9.4 out of 10, on MSN 46 reviewers have given it 9.0 out of 10 and on Yahoo 30 reviewers 2.5 out of 5. As I said, look at all the information before you buy and then make your choice. There are very few quarantees in life.
#20
How can you be certain that a transmission issue will develop? Because you have wind noise? How are these 2 issues even related? If you believe that certain batches have all the problems, then maybe wind noise is correlated with bad tranny. I highly doubt it since the phases of manufacturing do not involve just one set of machines/people. I am confident in saying that a vast majority of the current ES350s have perfectly fine trannys. To compare the GS with the ES is like comparing apples and oranges. Since the GS costs about $10,000 more than the ES, but doesnt really have $10,000 more worth of bells and whistles than the ES, one should expect much of that added cost went into quality control. For the most part, you do get what you pay for.
Last edited by Kaius88; 12-15-06 at 10:32 PM.
#21
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To compare the GS with the ES is like comparing apples and oranges. Since the GS costs about $10,000 more than the ES, but doesnt really have $10,000 more worth of bells and whistles than the ES, one should expect much of that added cost went into quality control. For the most part, you do get what you pay for.
IMO the problem with the ES is that Lexus got hasty and released the car before it was ready. I read somewhere that they had released it several months before they had originally announced. They probably could have used those few months to do some quality control checks on the production line as well as some additional testing where they may have noticed the tranny issue on their own.
I might be giving the wrong impression, my .02 is that the ES has some common problems. These are not problems just being presented by people that congregate here for the sole purpose of bringing up "unique" issues. These are very commom issues among those having problems with their ES. Overall, it is superb car and if someone were to ask me about the positive attributes of the ES, I would say there are many. It's probably the best car on the market today @ it's price point. It is far better than most luxury cars out there and it does everything very very well. There is no drama with the car. Nobody has been left stranded anywhere and nothing is falling apart. My mother in law loves it, my wife loves it, my kids love it, I love it, we all think it looks great and rides great. Do we wish the wind noise issue could be resolved? Yes. Do I wish that I didn't have to take the car out every couple of weeks to check for shift flare? Yes. If someone asks me whether or not I recommend the ES350? I would tell them about the problems that people are experiencing and let them decide for themselves. Would I say that most ES350s are trouble free and people on the CL forum represent a small segment of ES owners that like to congregate and complain so their troubles are not representative of all ES350s and should be taken with a grain of salt? Absolutely not.
#22
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I am concerned with the problems that people on this board say they are having. I have had enough lemons already and I do not need anymore. However I do prefer this car over the GS for a few reasons (actually CR magazine rates the reliability of the new GS much worse than the ES, which they gave a perfect rating to). However, I am concerned that I could end up with a lemon. Is there anything I can do to reduce the likelihood of this? Are the problems really that serious? What should I do?
The ES nor GS, heck the LS are not perfect but still the HIGHEST RATED QUALITY CARS in CLASS!
Honestly, I would wait for the 2008 ES to work out the bugs. As fof the GS, the GS is great.
#23
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I don't think that a GS should be considered a step up from an ES. The UL ES350 is pretty close in cost to a GS without nav or ML. There is probably more profit in the GS but I don't think there is any more quality. The GS also has a dash rattle issue that is quite common and reported by many 3GS owners. It seems to affect all 3rd gen GS models regardless of build date or model. As a matter of fact, my GS is going in this Thurs for a dash rattle along with the ES which is going in for the wind noise issue.
IMO the problem with the ES is that Lexus got hasty and released the car before it was ready. I read somewhere that they had released it several months before they had originally announced. They probably could have used those few months to do some quality control checks on the production line as well as some additional testing where they may have noticed the tranny issue on their own.
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Of course all 3 cars are some of the best built in the world, however as the price goes up, so does the quality. All 3 are tops in class in quality.
#24
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I have one of each and I don't see $13k worth of differnce in build quality. I see more details and features but build quality? What are we talking about here, more welds, better plastic, stronger steel? The only place where I see a difference in build quality is underneath the car. The ES is bare metal with body colored undercoating material and the GS has plastic panels covering the undercoating.
#25
#26
I call a spade a spade, and if it were just a few whiney complainers who had nothing better to do with their time than bash the car, that would be one thing. But clearly that's not the case. These people have spent $40k on a car and, more importantly, the Lexus name, and expect and deserve more.
On a related note, the father of a close friend of mine bought an ES350 a few weeks ago. My friend called me last night because his dad asked him to ask me a question about the car (he knows I'm a car guy and a Lexus fanatic). It seems like the transmission is "skipping," as he described it, and he wanted to know if I had any suggestions. He's in his late 60s, not computer-literate and wouldn't know a forum if it jumped up and bit him in the butt. Think about all the ES350 owners are out there (like my friend's dad) who don't use a computer, and even if they do, don't visit Internet forums. You're kidding yourself if you think that the problem is limited to "3 or 4 people constantly posting". The problems are much more widespread, but just not reported here.
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#27
Lexus Champion
omr...
It used to be thought that the world was flat, only a handful of "complainers" claimed it was actually round or spherical, and my oh my how those who insisted it was flat had hissy fits and worse.
Now, imagine if they had internet back then.
It used to be thought that the world was flat, only a handful of "complainers" claimed it was actually round or spherical, and my oh my how those who insisted it was flat had hissy fits and worse.
Now, imagine if they had internet back then.
#28
Lexus Champion
If the above were true generally of forums why are the other forums like IS and GS absent the content of this ES350 forum, where is the concentration of people venting?
There would be at least twice or three times the number of complaint posts on those forums if what forums were all about were "concentrations of people venting and discussing unusual issues...."
By numbers of active members we are far less in numbers here, they are triple and quadruple and more even than our numbers, yet look at Celibon's poll of issues and our own ES350 owner members reporting issues.
Something is up with claims of just what type of person visits an auto forum or else you'd see triple or quadruple the venting going on over there on those forums that you see here.
As to sensitive hearing as a reason for complaints....member after member has posted that service acknowledges sounds but either claims they are timing chain or fuel injector for engine and rename it buffeting for the wind noise.
Point being they hear these noises people are hearing in the cabin of the vehicle in order to offer up some explanation for their presence to begin with. Turning up a radio to drown out the sound or in order to ignore the sound is not what a radio in a vehicle is for.
#29
Lexus Test Driver
1Sicklex, with all my due respect, this is a very inaccurate comment. I'm the only person out of my "dealership" that is posting in here. I know for a fact our dealership already did more than half-a-dozen of buybacks and dozens of tranny replacements of ES350. This is just one dealership, OK? On top of that, there are hundreds of older folks with ES350 in our area who have no idea what flare is even if it hit them in a face. Please don't take it as a personal attack, I know its your job as a moderator to keep the forum in order and to keep the Lexus reputation "clean". But, you do not own ES350 and you base your comments on previous experience with older ES models and their reliability. I'm very confident to say that ES350 will go down as a dark spot in Lexus history.
#30
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