Lexus ES350 - Faster than we think
09-10-06, 09:13 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
The cars of the mid seventies / eighties were all slower and not that economical. We regressed to 10 second 0-60 mph tiomes and the cars could barely get up to speed in order to merge into freeway traffic. Remember the Dodge Aspen / Plymouth Volare. The Corvette was only 165 hp in the mid seventies. I was just impressed that this car could actually be faster than the majority of the performance icons of the musclecar era.
09-10-06, 09:35 AM
#17
Lexus Champion
Ok...maybe im too young to appreciate the classic muscle cars.... but isnt comparing our new state-of-the-art vehicle with cars from 40 years ago downplaying how far technology has come? I mean it sounds like "wow my computer that I just bought can run as fast as the 1968 IBM mainframe." Of course the newer model should be better and faster....otherwise we're regressing in tech advancement. So what is the point of the comparisons? That our luxury passenger vehicle today is comparable to the creme-of-the-crop cars of yesteryear? I can appreciate that comparison, but it has taken 40 years of car making experience to make that happen....which IMHO isn't very impressive. What is awe-worthy about this evolution?
09-10-06, 09:57 AM
#18
Pole Position
Ok...maybe im too young to appreciate the classic muscle cars.... but isnt comparing our new state-of-the-art vehicle with cars from 40 years ago downplaying how far technology has come? I mean it sounds like "wow my computer that I just bought can run as fast as the 1968 IBM mainframe." Of course the newer model should be better and faster....otherwise we're regressing in tech advancement. So what is the point of the comparisons? That our luxury passenger vehicle today is comparable to the creme-of-the-crop cars of yesteryear? I can appreciate that comparison, but it has taken 40 years of car making experience to make that happen....which IMHO isn't very impressive. What is awe-worthy about this evolution?
09-10-06, 10:04 AM
#19
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Esp. when you see a restored GTO or Chevelle SS396 and think, my little Lexus can give that brute a run for its money. Might review where our ES350 is versus the eighties and nineties icons (Mercedes 500SEC, 380SE etc) and the 1989 LS400. Atatched is the complete list.
Attachment 90999
Attachment 90999
Last edited by garsarno; 11-04-06 at 12:29 PM.
09-10-06, 11:36 AM
#20
Yeah. New cars are killers, and the power wars have never been on like they are now with import cars.
Mom's 02 maxima SE has become repeateably fast when you can hook it up. Even for an A/T.
2.2s 60'
6.2-6.1s 0-60
14.0 @ 95 1/4m
Keep in mind some things when compairing new to "muscle" cars.
So yeah... The muscle cars have the bolt-on N/A engine advantage & will continue to have that until you start seeing the everyday cars have 300-320bhp, AND pickup power from bolt-ons. The kind of power they make with bolt-ons, takes almost a full rebuild of today's engines. At times, a full rebuild.
On the flip side... Today's engines are built so much stronger it's pathetic. The kinds of power that would take a complete teardown of the strongest factory engines of the day, can be output by all the major v6 players under FI. All the while running happy as a lark & still getting stock mileage out of boost.
The FSE VS the FE... I'm tired of this already LoL! It gets on my nerves at the misinformation. A quick breakdown I wrote is here.
Mom's 02 maxima SE has become repeateably fast when you can hook it up. Even for an A/T.
2.2s 60'
6.2-6.1s 0-60
14.0 @ 95 1/4m
Keep in mind some things when compairing new to "muscle" cars.
- The average curb weight of today's muscle sedans is 3200-3300lbs. Muscle cars weighed 3800-4200lbs
- Tires in the day sucked, and were smaller than todays... A kia engine could have lit them up
- The average STOCK engine on a modern dyno would only make around 220-250bhp. Not the 300-400 once touted.
- There is NO such thing as a stock muscle car engine... They may start with 220-250bhp, but name one that doesn't get 30-50bhp from head porting & valve work, another 20-30bhp AVERAGE gains from long tube headers & another 10-20bhp from exhaust work (Which doesn't happen on today's cars... The cat-back exhaust simply isn't that restrictive.)
So yeah... The muscle cars have the bolt-on N/A engine advantage & will continue to have that until you start seeing the everyday cars have 300-320bhp, AND pickup power from bolt-ons. The kind of power they make with bolt-ons, takes almost a full rebuild of today's engines. At times, a full rebuild.
On the flip side... Today's engines are built so much stronger it's pathetic. The kinds of power that would take a complete teardown of the strongest factory engines of the day, can be output by all the major v6 players under FI. All the while running happy as a lark & still getting stock mileage out of boost.
The FSE VS the FE... I'm tired of this already LoL! It gets on my nerves at the misinformation. A quick breakdown I wrote is here.
09-10-06, 12:30 PM
#21
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I looked up more comparsons - 1979 Corvette L82 0-60 / 6.6 sec
1/4 mile 15.3 @ 95 mph
1992 SC300 0-60 / 7.8 sec
1/4 mile 16.0 @ 89 mph
1990 Mustang V-8 0-60 / 6.2 sec
1/4 mile 14.8 @ 96 mph
1979 Mercedes 6.9 1/4 mile 17.0 @ 90 mph
1989 Corvette 0-60 / 6.47 sec
1/4 mile 15.0 @ 94 mph
Lexus has come a long way since the 1989 ES250 with 156 hp and the LS400 with 250 hp.
1/4 mile 15.3 @ 95 mph
1992 SC300 0-60 / 7.8 sec
1/4 mile 16.0 @ 89 mph
1990 Mustang V-8 0-60 / 6.2 sec
1/4 mile 14.8 @ 96 mph
1979 Mercedes 6.9 1/4 mile 17.0 @ 90 mph
1989 Corvette 0-60 / 6.47 sec
1/4 mile 15.0 @ 94 mph
Lexus has come a long way since the 1989 ES250 with 156 hp and the LS400 with 250 hp.
09-10-06, 01:22 PM
#22
VS's the 80's & 90's... It's still pretty sucky. Altho it is fast.
Remember that the king of all muscle cars, the BGN / T-regeal runs a 13.5 1/4m stock, and can run 12's with nothing more than more boost on the stock turbo, an engine & clutch in good condition & traction.
And for god's sake don't compair it to another Lexus LoL! Factory Lexi are slow. All of them. Period. Just like all factory mustangs, minus the S/C'ed ones of 03-04 are horribly slow.
It Simply doesn't take much of anything to outrun a stock XX300 lexus, or any stock, or mild 5.0L mustang.
Remember that the king of all muscle cars, the BGN / T-regeal runs a 13.5 1/4m stock, and can run 12's with nothing more than more boost on the stock turbo, an engine & clutch in good condition & traction.
And for god's sake don't compair it to another Lexus LoL! Factory Lexi are slow. All of them. Period. Just like all factory mustangs, minus the S/C'ed ones of 03-04 are horribly slow.
It Simply doesn't take much of anything to outrun a stock XX300 lexus, or any stock, or mild 5.0L mustang.
09-10-06, 01:41 PM
#23
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
We are selling off our 1999 Town Car Signature Touring Sedan for the ES350.
As you can surmise, this ES350 is a supercar in comparison. Also have a 2004 Lincoln LS V6 that's just OK now in comparison to the test drive we had last Saturday in the dealer's ES350 Ultra (White with Black) demo. Looking forward to the end of the month for our Black Sapphire Ultra
As you can surmise, this ES350 is a supercar in comparison. Also have a 2004 Lincoln LS V6 that's just OK now in comparison to the test drive we had last Saturday in the dealer's ES350 Ultra (White with Black) demo. Looking forward to the end of the month for our Black Sapphire Ultra
09-10-06, 01:46 PM
#24
Hahahahahahahaha Town cars / Caddy's have got to be the slowest v8's on the road. My old es 300 bone stock needing a major tune-up I remember blowing afew off the road.
I'm sure it feels like a supercar LoL!
I'm sure it feels like a supercar LoL!
09-10-06, 03:40 PM
#26
What good would that do? The ES is a lot heavier, it still wouldn't be able to match the speed of the IS.
I think 270 hp is very good for a luxo barge. I test drove the car. I found the power delivery a little slow but more than adequate once it comes on. The ES models all seem to have that little hesitation when you mash the gas. But boy does it go when it get up to speed. I thought it was the best ES yet.
I think 270 hp is very good for a luxo barge. I test drove the car. I found the power delivery a little slow but more than adequate once it comes on. The ES models all seem to have that little hesitation when you mash the gas. But boy does it go when it get up to speed. I thought it was the best ES yet.
09-10-06, 05:17 PM
#27
AWD sucks hind tit if you don't have the power to roast the tires in a straight line. FWD is far more effecient. I don't like assumptions, but just to visualize the point. If the new 6 speed is as effecient as the old 4 speeds were, the ES would have 210whp.
If the AWD system is typical of similar systems, the new GS/IS may only be putting down 200-225whp. The ES350 has a hundred lbs on the IS350 & will likely have a hair more on the GS350.
I wouldn't be getting too cocky about racing an ES350 if I owned an IS/GS with the 2gr-fse & AWD. On the highway, it'd be dead even, and depending on the AWD transmission, it could wind up being a slight advantage to the lesser powered ES. From a dig, the is/gs350 would win by a hair, but it wouldn't be pulling away like crazy.
If the AWD system is typical of similar systems, the new GS/IS may only be putting down 200-225whp. The ES350 has a hundred lbs on the IS350 & will likely have a hair more on the GS350.
I wouldn't be getting too cocky about racing an ES350 if I owned an IS/GS with the 2gr-fse & AWD. On the highway, it'd be dead even, and depending on the AWD transmission, it could wind up being a slight advantage to the lesser powered ES. From a dig, the is/gs350 would win by a hair, but it wouldn't be pulling away like crazy.
09-12-06, 10:39 AM
#28
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What good would that do? The ES is a lot heavier, it still wouldn't be able to match the speed of the IS.
I think 270 hp is very good for a luxo barge. I test drove the car. I found the power delivery a little slow but more than adequate once it comes on. The ES models all seem to have that little hesitation when you mash the gas. But boy does it go when it get up to speed. I thought it was the best ES yet.
I think 270 hp is very good for a luxo barge. I test drove the car. I found the power delivery a little slow but more than adequate once it comes on. The ES models all seem to have that little hesitation when you mash the gas. But boy does it go when it get up to speed. I thought it was the best ES yet.
As far as the hesitation when mashing the gas from a (near) standstill--sounds like engine/tranny torque management...anyone know if the ES has torque management programmed into the PCM? FWIW--the GM fullsize SUVs/trucks have engine/tranny TM programmed into them...this is done so as to prevent "abuse" to the engine and/or tranny due to all them hard launches. I had most of the TM programmed out of my Denali so now there is no "hesitation" when I launch it from a standstill.
09-14-06, 01:35 PM
#29
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Yeah. New cars are killers, and the power wars have never been on like they are now with import cars.
Mom's 02 maxima SE has become repeateably fast when you can hook it up. Even for an A/T.
2.2s 60'
6.2-6.1s 0-60
14.0 @ 95 1/4m
Keep in mind some things when compairing new to "muscle" cars.
So yeah... The muscle cars have the bolt-on N/A engine advantage & will continue to have that until you start seeing the everyday cars have 300-320bhp, AND pickup power from bolt-ons. The kind of power they make with bolt-ons, takes almost a full rebuild of today's engines. At times, a full rebuild.
On the flip side... Today's engines are built so much stronger it's pathetic. The kinds of power that would take a complete teardown of the strongest factory engines of the day, can be output by all the major v6 players under FI. All the while running happy as a lark & still getting stock mileage out of boost.
The FSE VS the FE... I'm tired of this already LoL! It gets on my nerves at the misinformation. A quick breakdown I wrote is here.
Mom's 02 maxima SE has become repeateably fast when you can hook it up. Even for an A/T.
2.2s 60'
6.2-6.1s 0-60
14.0 @ 95 1/4m
Keep in mind some things when compairing new to "muscle" cars.
- The average curb weight of today's muscle sedans is 3200-3300lbs. Muscle cars weighed 3800-4200lbs
- Tires in the day sucked, and were smaller than todays... A kia engine could have lit them up
- The average STOCK engine on a modern dyno would only make around 220-250bhp. Not the 300-400 once touted.
- There is NO such thing as a stock muscle car engine... They may start with 220-250bhp, but name one that doesn't get 30-50bhp from head porting & valve work, another 20-30bhp AVERAGE gains from long tube headers & another 10-20bhp from exhaust work (Which doesn't happen on today's cars... The cat-back exhaust simply isn't that restrictive.)
So yeah... The muscle cars have the bolt-on N/A engine advantage & will continue to have that until you start seeing the everyday cars have 300-320bhp, AND pickup power from bolt-ons. The kind of power they make with bolt-ons, takes almost a full rebuild of today's engines. At times, a full rebuild.
On the flip side... Today's engines are built so much stronger it's pathetic. The kinds of power that would take a complete teardown of the strongest factory engines of the day, can be output by all the major v6 players under FI. All the while running happy as a lark & still getting stock mileage out of boost.
The FSE VS the FE... I'm tired of this already LoL! It gets on my nerves at the misinformation. A quick breakdown I wrote is here.
Musclecars were tremendously powerful, but terribly inefficient. A wonderful side effect of this inefficiency was, however, torque. Those big block V8s had gobs of stump pulling torque. That translated into an exhilarating primal feeling of power. Power you could feel in the seat of your pants. Power unlike that you may find in today's "musclcars" and certainly the luxury cars like the ES. Don't even get me started with the riced out Honda Civics that turn 10 second quarters.
It is absolutley a moot point to compare an ES350 to a '69 Chevelle SS. Apples and Oranges.
If you really want see a list of new and old performance numbers, feast your eyes:
http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm
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