gtstcactus

If the igniter is faulty would that prevent the coil from sparking?

LeX2K

Yes.

Do you have the service manual? It shows exactly how to check the coil and igniter circuits.

ES300NZ

you would think so, but actually there are two main parts to the ignitor, one is dwell control the other is the part which triggers the coil. Trechnically, if the dwell control part was not working correctly the ignitor might still function most of the time but fail to properly control dwell say one out of every 6 times. So, yes that could be the fault.

If in doubt, find a cheap second hand one, and swap it in. can't hurt.

gtstcactus

Yeah I've got the FSM.... I've done the resistance test it says to do on the coil and the coil failed on both the primary and secondary... I just started to doubt if the coil is the cause after reading on here somewhere of someone getting a new coil and having it test outside specified resistance range.. and the fact that both the coils I tested at the wreckers were very close in readings to mine, but I don't know if they were working prior to the vehicles being wrecked for parts...

It doesn't have a test for the igniter (or if it does I missed it) it just says to check everything else and if all of that doesn't give you an answer as to why you have no spark replace the igniter.... Which is a bit strange really as you can test an igniter if I understand right... I just can't find a simple explanation of how to test the igniter....

gtstcactus

I was just talking to a guy online who has a working coil... he did a resistance test on it and it's getting the same readings as mine... The readings are outside the those specified in the FSM but his coil is working.... So on that basis I'm really starting to think my coil is probably ok...

I just replaced the full set of HT leads with a set from Toyota... I won't have another coil to test until Tuesday...
I can probably get another ignitor on Wednesday, but I would like to narrow down the cause of the problem...

So I will try and work out how to test the ignitor... I read somewhere you can use a car light bulb with 2 wires and stick them in the coil plug... turn the key and if the light flashes on & off the ignitor is working.... not sure if it will work but I'll give it a go...

gtstcactus

So after removing and replacing the ignition leads I tested them with my multimeter... 2 s/p leads must have breaks in them as I can't get any resistance reading at all... another lead was arcing with the valve cover so clearly they needed replacing but I don't think that would stop the vehicle from starting... It's also possible I broke 2 of the leads when removing them...

I replaced the coil with the known to work one I had.... The resistance settings were almost identical to my coil, and certainly outside what the FSM specifies as ok (tho there is some contradiction in the FSM as to what the correct figures should be). I fired the car up and it started all good... Went for a drive and not one miss, backfire, burp or fart from it... Idling is back to normal, all cylinders firing nicely...

So either I haven't fixed the problem and it could reappear at anytime or the coil was the problem and the new one has fixed it despite having the same resistance reading as the one it replaced outside spec...

Perhaps that is why the mechanic who looked at it in the car park when it broke down told me it's no good testing the coil with a multimeter.....???

So I'm happy the car is now going nicely but I am certainly a little confused and don't really understand what was wrong with the other coil given it's replacements ohm readings.......

ES300NZ

I've been working on cars for ... a long time. The only decent test I know for a coil is sighted spark combined with engine load and smoothness in running. But autosparkies do have a test to perfectly determine a coils functionality. I've no idea what it is so I googled it.

first I found this ...
http://www.international-auto.com/fi...ition-coil.cfm

and this,
http://www.wikihow.com/Test-an-Ignition-Coil

but my test is something you can only example in person, it's more like .. knowing how an engine is supposed to sound and hearing the .. missed steps in the revolutions, or the ... flat spot in the rpm, .. it's hard to explain ... unless you can hear it

I'd put money it was the leads, but hey, you're sorted and thats all that matters.

gtstcactus

Well it seems all is not sorted!

The car died again today and refused to start just like when it died initially 10 days ago or whenever it was...

I previously did the tests outlined in those links... The spark test they give using the spark plug & lead doesn't really eliminate the distributor as possible cause I think. So I basically did the same spark test using a lead pulled from the distributor but still plugged into the coil....

Some of the problem has been fixed... It was running great, there was no warning something was wrong before it died... No shaking, rough idling, burping, farting etc. I drove across town with 1 stop on the way... Car stopped turned off and started fine. Got to my destination did what I had to do which was only a few minutes, restarted the car reversed, started a 3 point turn and the car died on the reverse and refused to start again... cranking but I suspect no spark again but have to confirm... When this happened last time it all started while reversing..

Is there any clue in it cutting out and dying while reversing??

So it has all new spark plugs, & all new ignition leads.... So I suppose I really need to go and redo some tests...

ES300NZ

damn dude, I wonder if your fuel tank has something in it, like dirt, or .. I dunno ... something which might obstruct.

make sure your engine strap, and battery earth to frame are excellent. It's often overlooked but well worth making sure they are fine (they probably will be).


This is just key, you need to know which it is. Buy some cold start (CRC), keep that in the car, next time drop of a load of that down the intake while you are cranking it, or or have someone .. help you.

might I suggest an AA membership for the next few months while you get this sorted, you can always cancel once you're finished with this issue.

gtstcactus

Lol yeah an AA membership could be helpful! I've used my all my free call outs / tow truck tows that come with State Roadside Rescue... now it's $50 a call out but I suppose that's cheaper than paying a tow company direct...

I will check all the grounds again etc but I'm pretty sure they're ok... I don't think it's a fuel issue but I guess it can't hurt to get some cold start to eliminate it for sure...

So back on the spark front.... I suppose it is possible the coil I put in (used) has crapped itself but that would be really bad luck...

The igniter seemed to be ok but perhaps taking it out moving it etc made it ok temporarily...

Failing that Scotty Kilmer (youtube) said he's seen the distributor fail quite a lot on these cars which seems to contradict what Lexus2000 said who seems to be pretty knowledgeable about these cars.... I guess replacing the dizzy cap and rotor probably can't hurt, I'll do the FSM resistance tests on the connector first...

Do you mess with the timing replacing just the cap & rotor? IE do you remove the housing to do just cap & rotor? (I'm at work haven't had a chance to look into it)

I can't help but think the fact it's now died twice as soon as I start to reverse must be a clue in the puzzle.... I had reversed a couple of times without it dying this morning. Could this be anything else like crank position sensor etc??

How's this for a laugh... Rutherford & Bond Toyota (Wellington) said the cost for a new distributor housing would be $3000NZD ex Japan as there aren't any in the country!!! I will prob just do the cap & rotor but that price is just insane!

I'm quite gutted as it was running fantastically before this mornings breakdown, I thought with the idle back to normal, no more shaking & shuddering etc that it must have been sorted... I guess I should be happy that much is better but I've got to get to the bottom of this!

LeX2K

When the car doesn't start test the coil you'll know right away if you have an intermittent problem.
The magnetic pickup in the dizzy can potentially fail but not common. It is possible of course. Unlike some other cars the 3VZ distributor doesn't contain a whole bunch of electronics that stuff is external (done because of limited space). If you can get a dizzy cheap then by all means swap it out to see if the problem goes away.
Ignition timing will not change by removing the cap.
There is no crank position sensor on the 3VZ. On the car dying out when you put the tranny in reverse, maybe that causes the engine to move enough which moves some wiring that may be iffy. Or maybe the neutral safety switch needs attention but will that make the engine die? Not sure. I don't think that is your problem though because you say that when you have the no start condition there is no spark.

ES300NZ

actually the neutral safety switch is a really good idea, and yes, it would cut spark at the ecu, stuff like that never cuts fuel it's always spark.

re iffy wiring, .. it's totally possible. perhaps he should take apart the igniter plugs look for a dry or broken join.

ES300NZ

generally no. you just remove the cap, and arm, and replace them. you never have to touch the timing so far as I've ever seen.

ES300NZ

A dizzy is pretty simple, it's a shaft with a gear at one end, and a timing point (rotor arm), at the other. You only really have to replace them when the shaft is moving around in the housing, or the gear is stuffed (usually softer than the gear in the motor which drives ... usually).

I've replaced dizzy's before for things like,

• the shaft was sloppy (bearing stuffed),
• the thing which holds the clip, which holds the cap in place was broken. .
• I dropped it and chipped a geartooth.
• I can't find it.

often I end up paying about $50 for it. So, for $3000NZD it better come gold plated with a Russian Mail Bride bearing it. just saying. wtf.

LeX2K

I'm not sure but I don't think the NSS will cut spark, it is there to prevent starter engagement unless N-P position and for the backup lights.
On some Toyota models the coil is integrated into the distributor, in this design the coil is known to fail due to heat build up. But you're right a distributor is a relatively simple unit.