Ahheck01

iTrader: (2)

Hey all,

My wife loves her GS430 - mainly the comfort, quality, heated seats, and sound system (2002 with the ML system). However, in the winter, she's a bit out of her element. I'm selling my car and taking the GS, and we're looking to buy her a FWD that's as close to her GS as possible. I assume that's probably an ES.

We'd like to keep it under $6k. I'm seeing a handful of '05 ES330's around that price with 150k miles. '02-'03 around 120k mi, as well as well maintained '00-'01 with 120k mi for $3500-$4500.

So with the following priorities, what would be your suggestions, and why?

1) Reliability/Cost of Ownership
2) Safety
3) Similarity of quality/luxury to '02 GS430

Cheers!

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

This question has been posed a few times before, so I'll put in a little input. First off, I own both a 2002 GS and 2004 ES and owned a 2001 ES. If your wife is a sporty driver, the ES is not for her. While I loved my 2001, it is a bit old old and extremely dated option wise. The 02-06 ES is reasonably quick, but the ride is extremely soft, the steering very light, and it isn't as solid feeling as the GS, at high speed it's stable, but not as planted as the GS. Options wise, the ES are easier to find fully loaded, but if you're used o the speed of the 430, at least try to get a 330. I personally feel the 05-06 updates are worth the extra miles, but you may be able to find a 2004 with the bigger engine, but same look as the 2002-03 for less than a 05-06. Realizability wise, my ES has cost me a lot lot less than my GS. While I've paid a fortune for suspension, servos, door locks, and mounts on my GS, all I've put into the ES are brakes, oil, and gas. Both are great cars, but they are very different. Also, the ES transmission is no where as smooth as the GS, but clean the throttle body, change the fluid, and some say do the dealer te flash, the transmission isn't bad at all. I'm sure others will post some input. As for safety, the ES is a newer design than the GS, so it has many of the safety feature you'd expect, but Mae sure to get one with VSC and TRAC, I've never experienced one without them, but people have complained that theirs hasn't had these options.

Oro

You will likely get a lot of answers, none of them will be wrong. There are subtle differences and people will enjoy different aspects.

Exterior looks: I think the 00/01 and 05/6 are better looking than the 02-04. However, it's not enough to make a real difference to me.

Interior: I REALLY like the interior of the 02+. So much so, I find it one of the most pleasing car interiors I've experienced - unobtrusive, flowingly elegant (w/o nav especially). I find the stereo great, and you can add bluetooth to it w/o great expense if you want that convenience. I prefer non-nav as '02 era nav is vastly outperformed by a smart phone or less obtrusive Garmin unit now, and doesn't offer a potential repair item, though they are not overly touchy as far as I understand. I considered a GS430 for myself, but I like the ES interior more, coupled with the maintenance ease and reliability. I have another V8 sport-tourer and I don't want a 2nd gas-chewing, high-maintenance one - so this bears directly on your situation. I may get a 2nd 02-06 ES300/330 in the near future (for me to drive; she drives our 02 daily). I actually am debating that vs. an LS430 - but I think the interior styling of the ES300/330 is more pleasant than even the LS.

Reliability: We have a '02 with 229k on it. Very little maintenance costs on our watch (2nd owner). I re-did suspension is about all besides fluids, belts, bulbs, etc. A window gasket, rebuilt the alternator - not much else and all within reason for mileage. Many things that should be worn out or need replacing are simply still in great shape. It looks and runs great. Can't argue with that. Prior generation GS300 was a money-suck in comparison, perhaps as bad or worse than my Audi V8.

Handling/performance: ES and GS different beasts as noted. I put KYB shocks and Moog rear springs in ours and now it is really smooth, supple, but not overly soft. We really like it. Steering as noted is light and you are stuck with that. No sports car of course, but a great sedan. It was about $475 total doing my own labor. Great improvement. I like this car because it is fuel efficient enough to be a single-person luxury commuter car, but also big enough to put four in for an evening out or family trip. Extraordinarily flexible and useful design. It's an efficient luxury sedan, not a sports sedan. The fuel efficiency of the 02 up is a big plus to us, and the power output between 02/03 300 and 330 is negligible to me. As to tranny, I've flushed ours, put in synthetic fluid, replaced dogbone mount, and it is really smooth except the well-known hard downshift occasionally at a stop. Full synthetic ATF and checking the engine strut/mounts will do wonders for these transmissions.

Other (sludge): pre-02, the 1MZ-FE engine is supposed to be sludge-prone. In the real world, it takes lots of short trips and oil change neglect to induce that. I'd not shy away from a prior model because of that if it's well-cared for. The oil-fill baffle on ours (and probably all of them?) makes visualizing the valve train on inspection impossible so you can't really peak inside without lifting the front valve cover, unfortunately.

What would I do?: Any '02-06 that is clean and good value, preferably w/o nav. If I got a GREAAT deal on an 00-01, I'd do that. Find one with documented highway miles and it will have little wear and tear on it and you will get a great value (that is what we did). I don't really care about TRAC/VSC. I have other all-weather cars if push comes to shove, but still I do not find the behavior of this one in dire need of it to a decent driver, but you/she might. I'm currently debating another one of this generation head to head against an LS430 and I really have a hard time deciding; going to buy one or the other next summer so have time to decide.

Ahheck01

iTrader: (2)

Thank you for taking the time to reply in detail, both of you!

For you, Oro, my two cents after owning a custom-luxury '04 LS430, and driving that back to back a few times vs an '08 ES350: Even though the LS booked a little lower than the ES, it felt like it should book three times higher. It was so night-and-day I felt bad for the ES owner at the time, since he had paid nearly three times what I did for what seemed like a massively inferior car. Truly, this can't be overstated. I miss that car. The only thing I didn't love about it was that it was fairly numb in the steering, similar to the ES. My wife's GS with the same engine provides a noticeably more enjoyable experience for everything but straight-line cruising, as a driver.

But as a passenger, or just for cruising, I've never felt anything quite like my LS430. And the amenities are just nuts, aside from the now-antiquated Nav system. If you don't mind the fuel economy of the V8 (18-24, 21avg in my experience), and you don't mind RWD and fairly numb steering, there may not be a better car on the road for under $50k.


As for the ES's, I'm open to more feedback. Currently I'm leaning a bit towards holding out for a great deal on an '05, though the previous post has me thinking I should keep my options open to an 02-03 too.

Oro

Thanks for the feedback on the LS. I have not driven it yet but I am pretty sure when I do, that will seal it. I don't need the mpg (not a high mile driver), and the bang-for-buck on one with 100k to 150k seems shocking to me, just like you pointed out. I have never heard an owner dish on one, and I've perused lots in the 430 forum here.

And yes, do keep the 02/03 open - I do like the 330 better, but it's essentially the same car and in a used market, condition, mileage and price will trump the minor differences in that narrow my range.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

Having had an LS430 and a LS460 in the family, I can say that I believe the LS430 is still today one of the best, if not they best cars Lexus has ever made. Most people at my dealer agree as they have told me off several cases of where people who had 430s traded to a 460, then traded back. They also talk about two different ones with over 300k miles that still come to the dealer for service with no repairs other than necessary maintenance. Off topic to the ES, but I really love those 430, especially the 2004-2006

Ahheck01

iTrader: (2)

I loved that car so much that I don't even mind hijacking my ES thread for the purpose of singing its praises.

funcrusher

I would of got a LS if it wasn't a gas hog

Oro

There is a "what mpg do you get" thread in the 430 forum. A lot of owners report getting 26pmg highway and darn good city - 19/20. I.E., they get right at or better than the EPA estimates. I can live with that for the quality, size, and power you get. Heck, I'd could only dream of getting that mpg with my v6 suv or Audi!

This is what I keep hearing/reading, and why I want to get a well-kept, 100-125k miles one (I see them come up, especially here w/mild weather), and possibly drive it for 20 more years. !

Oops, now we are all hijacking his thread the he hijacked himself.

Ahheck01

iTrader: (2)

No worries!

I'm pretty settled on a 4th gen. My (ambitious) goal is to get a well-maintained '05-'06 with around 125k mi, black interior, black/silver/white exterior for under $6500 within 400 miles of zip code 52404. However, my search is open to '04's, and for under $5k I'd consider an '02-'03 so my search includes those as well.

Anything I should be looking out for in higher-mileage '05's?

speedkar9

I think the 2005-06 Lexus ES will offer you the closest comfort, luxurious interior and power to the GS in your price bracket.

The 2005 got upgrades that in my opinion are worth the extra, such as ventilated seats, steering wheel audio controls, much better styled tail lights and reverse-tilt mirrors to name a few.

When looking for a used ES, make sure the timing belt and water-pump has been changed as that's pretty much the major expense around 100K/10 year old. For anything above 150K, check for worn suspension and steering components such as control arm bushings, ball joints and struts. Test drive the vehicle in stop and go traffic to make sure you are okay with the lag in the transmission.

Also look for one with traction control - surprisingly mine didn't come with this option - and every-time I want to accelerate through a quick turn the engine's 240lb-ft of torque peaks at a pretty low 3600RPM causing for some crazy wheel spin and burnouts.

acarapella

If you are up for the mod, see about sn ebiach pro kit for an 02-06. I like mine stock, but I have seen what an ebiach pro kit can do to a car as far as adding a substantial, controlled feel. personally, I like being as isolated from the road as possible so the mod isn't for me.