Suspension Changed; Lost Lexus "Glide"
11-05-13, 02:55 PM
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Suspension Changed; Lost Lexus "Glide"
Hi folks, I'm looking for a little "post-service" advice. Hammer away all you want, but let it be known I tried to be as careful as I could with my choice of mechanics and guidance provided.
I have very, very nice 1997 ES300 that was loaded, including the top of the line sound package, chrome wheels, and adaptive variable suspension (AVS). I purchased this from a friend who freaked at the thought of owning a vehicle that had more than 50,000 miles (go figure). It now has 118,000 miles and I've already had to change out the transmission at 90,000 (way too early, but what are you gonna do) and have done all the other regular maintenance to keep it looking good and running like a top. Frankly, I love this car. It is a pleasure to drive and induces no road fatigue whatsoever.
Recently, despite still possessing an excellent ride on relatively smooth roads, I noticed a decline in the vehicle's ability to handle bumps well, with a sense that the back was "bottoming out" more than it should. That, combined with some front dive on breaking, convinced me it was time to replace the struts.
My first shock, of course, was discovering the price tag well north of $500 for electronic struts to replace those that interact with the AVS system. Every mechanic I talked to was aghast at this (well, except the Lexus parts people, who in their Stepfordy way merely asked me if I was ready to place an order, like anyone would want to).
So I stopped by this forum for advice and to find out if there were implications for replacing the AVS struts with regular struts...some worried that perhaps the dashboard would light up like a Christmas tree...others thought that was nonsense...maybe. (Well, I can now confirm once and for all, at least for my ES model, nothing happens when you put in non-electronic struts, like 99.9% of ES's came with).
While investigating here about the AVS system (and thanks to everyone who posted in the past and interacted with me via PM on this subject) I also learned a LOT about suspensions I did not know, and so I went armed to my mechanic with explicit instructions on what struts to buy (KYB) and to use genuine Toyota parts for all necessary replacements (strut mounts, bump stops, insulators, bearings, etc.)
In the end, the job was close to $2000. And as I climbed into the car, I was looking forward to the ride home, because if there's one thing I know in life, one of the few car jobs that always leaves you feeling like you have a new car, is replacing the suspension.
BUT...I did not feel that. Instead, I felt like I was in a 1997 Ford. Not to disparage Ford, but that legendary Lexus glide was GONE. Kaput. I felt every crack and crevice in my bottom. Even at slow speeds, in a supermarket parking lot, I felt a jiggle and bump I never felt before. You want road feel? I now have it. Hello, road fatigue.
There ARE things that are better. The car definitely feels more taut. And the front dive when breaking is gone. Steering is crisp. But what happened to the Lexus glide? Where did it go? It couldn't be the absence of the AVS system--it had four settings and I moved it between the two inner settings, but never felt a whole lot of difference--and besides, ALL Lexus automobiles I've ever been in have that legendary ride...where did mine go? What should I ask the mechanic now? I'm at a complete loss...any thoughts or advice to a heartbroken ES owner?
I have very, very nice 1997 ES300 that was loaded, including the top of the line sound package, chrome wheels, and adaptive variable suspension (AVS). I purchased this from a friend who freaked at the thought of owning a vehicle that had more than 50,000 miles (go figure). It now has 118,000 miles and I've already had to change out the transmission at 90,000 (way too early, but what are you gonna do) and have done all the other regular maintenance to keep it looking good and running like a top. Frankly, I love this car. It is a pleasure to drive and induces no road fatigue whatsoever.
Recently, despite still possessing an excellent ride on relatively smooth roads, I noticed a decline in the vehicle's ability to handle bumps well, with a sense that the back was "bottoming out" more than it should. That, combined with some front dive on breaking, convinced me it was time to replace the struts.
My first shock, of course, was discovering the price tag well north of $500 for electronic struts to replace those that interact with the AVS system. Every mechanic I talked to was aghast at this (well, except the Lexus parts people, who in their Stepfordy way merely asked me if I was ready to place an order, like anyone would want to).
So I stopped by this forum for advice and to find out if there were implications for replacing the AVS struts with regular struts...some worried that perhaps the dashboard would light up like a Christmas tree...others thought that was nonsense...maybe. (Well, I can now confirm once and for all, at least for my ES model, nothing happens when you put in non-electronic struts, like 99.9% of ES's came with).
While investigating here about the AVS system (and thanks to everyone who posted in the past and interacted with me via PM on this subject) I also learned a LOT about suspensions I did not know, and so I went armed to my mechanic with explicit instructions on what struts to buy (KYB) and to use genuine Toyota parts for all necessary replacements (strut mounts, bump stops, insulators, bearings, etc.)
In the end, the job was close to $2000. And as I climbed into the car, I was looking forward to the ride home, because if there's one thing I know in life, one of the few car jobs that always leaves you feeling like you have a new car, is replacing the suspension.
BUT...I did not feel that. Instead, I felt like I was in a 1997 Ford. Not to disparage Ford, but that legendary Lexus glide was GONE. Kaput. I felt every crack and crevice in my bottom. Even at slow speeds, in a supermarket parking lot, I felt a jiggle and bump I never felt before. You want road feel? I now have it. Hello, road fatigue.
There ARE things that are better. The car definitely feels more taut. And the front dive when breaking is gone. Steering is crisp. But what happened to the Lexus glide? Where did it go? It couldn't be the absence of the AVS system--it had four settings and I moved it between the two inner settings, but never felt a whole lot of difference--and besides, ALL Lexus automobiles I've ever been in have that legendary ride...where did mine go? What should I ask the mechanic now? I'm at a complete loss...any thoughts or advice to a heartbroken ES owner?
11-05-13, 04:10 PM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
Welcome to Club Lexus!
Give the struts some time to settle in, and then report back.
Yes, the KYB struts will be firmer but not as drastic as you are experiencing.
Give the struts some time to settle in, and then report back.
Yes, the KYB struts will be firmer but not as drastic as you are experiencing.
11-05-13, 05:18 PM
#3
Lexus Champion
Struts are not springs, it's the hydraulic fluid that gives them their characteristics, and there is nothing about that hydraulic fluid, or any of the strut's other components, that will make it change its designed behavior over time.
The reason that people say that it will eventually soften, is probably that by then they got used to the ride, and mistakingly believe that the struts have settled in, and became softer.
Phil
Last edited by PFB; 11-05-13 at 07:57 PM.
11-05-13, 05:22 PM
#4
If you purchased the silver GR-2 struts from KYB, there lies your problem. While the stock struts are made by KYB, they are made with valving specifications from Lexus. The GR-2 is a replacement strut that is valved firmer than stock and will never settle down to that lexus feel you are used to. I know because I went through the same thing in my other car and never got the original ride back with the GR-2s. Unfortunately, if you want that ride back, you are better off buying the OEM standard struts (not AVS) and installing them in place of your GR-2s. Only then will you have that Lexus ride back.
11-05-13, 06:50 PM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
I know that many say to give the KYB ( or any other) struts time to settle and that they will soften, but I can't think of any reason as to why they should soften after a few days, or even weeks, unless they leak.
Struts are not springs, it's the hydraulic fluid that gives them their characteristics, and there is nothing about that hydraulic fluid, or any of the strut's other components, that will make it change its designed behavior over time.
The reason that people say that it will eventually soften, is probably that by then they had gotent used to the ride, and mistakingly believe that the struts have settled in, and became softer.
Phil
Struts are not springs, it's the hydraulic fluid that gives them their characteristics, and there is nothing about that hydraulic fluid, or any of the strut's other components, that will make it change its designed behavior over time.
The reason that people say that it will eventually soften, is probably that by then they had gotent used to the ride, and mistakingly believe that the struts have settled in, and became softer.
Phil
11-05-13, 06:53 PM
#6
Lexus Test Driver
If you purchased the silver GR-2 struts from KYB, there lies your problem. While the stock struts are made by KYB, they are made with valving specifications from Lexus. The GR-2 is a replacement strut that is valved firmer than stock and will never settle down to that lexus feel you are used to. I know because I went through the same thing in my other car and never got the original ride back with the GR-2s. Unfortunately, if you want that ride back, you are better off buying the OEM standard struts (not AVS) and installing them in place of your GR-2s. Only then will you have that Lexus ride back.
11-05-13, 07:33 PM
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Thanks, guys, for chiming in, I really do appreciate it. I too am somewhat skeptical of the "settling in" part of the equation, unless it's just the driver just accepting his circumstances (what are the four stages of grief?)
Honestly, I'm trying very hard not to over-dramatize this situation (or, listen too closely to the wife: "Jeez, what happened to your car? Is it supposed to feel like this?") I realize that most of us tend to be hyper-analytical in the aftermath of car work: we listen too hard, think too much, and generally overreact, but if there's one thing that I've learned over the years it's that nothing gives you a better sense of car well-being (i.e. your money was well spent) than the feel of new tires properly balanced and a new suspension. Each of those things should have you leaving the shop whistling a happy tune. But in this case, it...just...didn't...happen. At first I told myself it was fine, FINE! But with each passing mile, I realized I no longer had a special car, just a car. And that is just a bit depressing. OK, a LOT depressing when you consider the hit to the wallet.
Anyway, I'm going to have a calm, rational discussion with my mechanic (I'm not mad at anyone) and see how they feel about synergy's comments...anyone else wanna weigh in, I'm all ears. No matter the outcome, you guys are terrific. (Funny how I came here all concerned about some dashboard light coming on if I abandoned the AVS, and what I should have been concentrating on was the RIDE. Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room.)
Honestly, I'm trying very hard not to over-dramatize this situation (or, listen too closely to the wife: "Jeez, what happened to your car? Is it supposed to feel like this?") I realize that most of us tend to be hyper-analytical in the aftermath of car work: we listen too hard, think too much, and generally overreact, but if there's one thing that I've learned over the years it's that nothing gives you a better sense of car well-being (i.e. your money was well spent) than the feel of new tires properly balanced and a new suspension. Each of those things should have you leaving the shop whistling a happy tune. But in this case, it...just...didn't...happen. At first I told myself it was fine, FINE! But with each passing mile, I realized I no longer had a special car, just a car. And that is just a bit depressing. OK, a LOT depressing when you consider the hit to the wallet.
Anyway, I'm going to have a calm, rational discussion with my mechanic (I'm not mad at anyone) and see how they feel about synergy's comments...anyone else wanna weigh in, I'm all ears. No matter the outcome, you guys are terrific. (Funny how I came here all concerned about some dashboard light coming on if I abandoned the AVS, and what I should have been concentrating on was the RIDE. Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room.)
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11-05-13, 07:45 PM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
Everything he said about the KYB's is 100% true. BTW there is no difference between the black or silver painted KYB struts, they are the same units.
11-05-13, 07:49 PM
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Hypervish, in my previous post, I didn't mean to sound like I was rejecting your advice to allow the struts to "settle in" before drawing any conclusions. For one thing, I was unaware of any need to "prime" struts. Second, your comment about KYB's compensating for worn components is an interesting one. Would it change your thoughts if I told you that practically all the components short of the springs were replaced with Toyota parts and that I more or less had the classic Lexus ride before the work was done?
11-05-13, 07:49 PM
#10
2000$ ??!?!? wow you got hosed, and put 2k into a car worth no more than that.
Regarding settling, not a factory replacement... shouldn't make any difference but 'feel' harsher since its new.
It's hard to put it into perspective, since you're used to the bounciness and recalling the 'smoothness' is all but subjective vs. the replacements.
When I did mine, I noticed the car was tighter, but then again I drove around with the ***-end swaying for two weeks, so any real Lexus feel was left to my imagination, as you get so used to it.
Regarding settling, not a factory replacement... shouldn't make any difference but 'feel' harsher since its new.
It's hard to put it into perspective, since you're used to the bounciness and recalling the 'smoothness' is all but subjective vs. the replacements.
When I did mine, I noticed the car was tighter, but then again I drove around with the ***-end swaying for two weeks, so any real Lexus feel was left to my imagination, as you get so used to it.
11-05-13, 07:53 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
KYB struts DO take time to settle, at least 10k miles in my experience. They never settle to the point of being as compliant as the originals. Priming a strut means cycling it up and down ~10 times using the full travel, otherwise the strut will make your car feel like you have concrete in your tires for the first few miles.
I would assume any shop that does suspension work would be fully aware of how the KYB's ride compared to stock, and would hopefully inform people about it.
I would assume any shop that does suspension work would be fully aware of how the KYB's ride compared to stock, and would hopefully inform people about it.
11-05-13, 07:59 PM
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01LEXPL, I can understand why you might feel I got hosed, but I got not one, not two, but THREE independent foreign car shop estimates and they were all within a couple of hundred dollars apart. When you add in strut mounts, bump stops, bearings, insulators, struts all around, and labor (and insist on OE parts) then you're knocking on the door, brother. I may have gotten thoroughly drenched, given the way I feel my car now rides and all, but this job would have required a towel afterwards regardless.
11-05-13, 08:06 PM
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Lexus 2000 wrote:
"I would assume any shop that does suspension work would be fully aware of how the KYB's ride compared to stock, and would hopefully inform people about it."
I guess if there was anything I'm disappointed by it is this. At no point was there any cautionary comments about the ride, only assurances that the KYB's would be a nice "neutral" setting for my car, which is pretty much where I left my AVS **** all the time. I didn't really give it much thought and never did see many comments about this while researching the AVS issue. Kinda feel like it's at least partly my bad, just wish I'd had some guidance from any of the three shops I visited, but no one raised the issue of potential ride variability.
"I would assume any shop that does suspension work would be fully aware of how the KYB's ride compared to stock, and would hopefully inform people about it."
I guess if there was anything I'm disappointed by it is this. At no point was there any cautionary comments about the ride, only assurances that the KYB's would be a nice "neutral" setting for my car, which is pretty much where I left my AVS **** all the time. I didn't really give it much thought and never did see many comments about this while researching the AVS issue. Kinda feel like it's at least partly my bad, just wish I'd had some guidance from any of the three shops I visited, but no one raised the issue of potential ride variability.
Last edited by Avory; 11-05-13 at 08:09 PM.
11-05-13, 08:38 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
Either they didn't know or simply didn't care. I would guess the 2nd. If I wanted a car with a more sporty ride I would get KYB for sure, they make aggressive driving a lot more fun. But in a Lexus not a chance I would get the OE parts. Monroe OESpectrum is very close to original, that would be my second choice if I wanted to match the original setup.
As for the cost, it's not actually out of line. Price all the components (not just the struts themselves) and it adds up.
As for the cost, it's not actually out of line. Price all the components (not just the struts themselves) and it adds up.
11-06-13, 08:59 AM
#15
It's just unfortunate that you didn't do a little more research. There was a member here that converted his car to AVS [it was a 2001], and he listed where he got them from Japan and such.
I hate seeing people get ripped off, here's an example; http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-WINDOM-1997-Rear-Left-Strut-0750410-/331044981019?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d13d1891b&vxp=mtr
A complete 'quick strut' if you will, that would slide into place and take no more than 1.5hrs to do, and you got to keep the AVS system.
The mechanic's won't care, they simply call their supplier with a year/make/model and the supplier sends their recommended part for that car, in this case it was the KYB's.
I hate seeing people get ripped off, here's an example; http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-WINDOM-1997-Rear-Left-Strut-0750410-/331044981019?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d13d1891b&vxp=mtr
A complete 'quick strut' if you will, that would slide into place and take no more than 1.5hrs to do, and you got to keep the AVS system.
The mechanic's won't care, they simply call their supplier with a year/make/model and the supplier sends their recommended part for that car, in this case it was the KYB's.