Lexuses35

Hi,

Today I bought a 2014 lexus Es 350 from non lexus dealer. It has 12k miles. Car fax showed clean record. Local car mechanics checked out car and told me all good. At first dealer said all good about the car. At the end as I was doing paperwork finance guy told me Car has structural damage. Then he had me write on a paper that I UNDERSTAND THE DAMAGE AND GOT MY SIGN. Yes, I could deny to sign and walk out. I still bought it. It was $23,996. They could not give me any specs of the damage. I financed the car.

Am I in trouble?

Ratchey

Depends on the level of structural damage and how it was fixed. You can't question yourself after the fact. For $24K I would say it was priced as a car with a branded title.
You were aware of the issue before the final signature, so drive the car, and don't look back.

Lexuses35

What do you mean by 24k with branded title...? They would not give any specifics on level of structural damage. Also, how's possible the carfax shows no record of accident while it had the damage?

lesz

When a vehicle has a "branded title" that means that the title for the vehicle is permanently designated as a vehicle that has had severe collision damage, flood damage, fire damage, etc. or that it is a salvage vehicle.

A nicely equipped 2014 ES would, I'd expect, be sold for a dealer retail price of somewhere around $30,000, and, with only 12,000 miles and if it was very well equipped and in excellent condition, the dealer retail price might even be a bit higher than that. If the dealer is selling the car for $24,000, that is likely an indication that there is damage that either can't be completely repaired or that it would be very expensive to repair. Thus, the price of the car has been significantly discounted.

Carfax reports only include information that has been provided to them by a body shop, an insurance company, etc. If no such information was provided to Carfax about the vehicle's history, it isn't going to be included on the Carfax report.

Ratchey

Pretty much what lesz said. A dealer will NEVER disclose damage unless they have to, which would indicate a branded or salvage title (there are other terms as well)
Based on KBB, an average ES350 with a Luxury package (mid-line most common level) would retail for $27-31K. At $24K with 12K miles, there is something wrong with the car. Hence the discount and branded title. It doesn't mean you got a bad deal, it just means your car will never be worth what a non branded title car will be. If the car was repaired properly, it should be fine. But chances are there is no manufacturer warranty left on the car (or at least they won't cover any damaged areas) unless the car was repaired by Lexus.
If you aren't comfortable with buying a damaged car, you should always walk away when they disclose that information.

amphiprion

What does the title on the car say?

Dave Mac

My concern with the repair not showing up on the CarFax report would be that the work was not done at a Lexus body shop. Not all shops report to CarFax in a timely manner but I have to think that most reputable shops do submit the reports. But the dealer was aware of and did disclose the repair so it is not as if they tried to hide it from you. It would have been nice to see the repair invoice or estimate though.

Dave Mac
.

jloftus

Yeh that dealer was not very above board. I suppose the idea is to get the customer excited about the car and the deal, and then wait

til the last minute to spring on you the 'bad news'. It was probably presented in such a smooth way as to downplay it to the point where you'd

think it's not a big deal - after all, you drove it and liked it.

It may in fact not be anything that would affect your enjoyment of the car at all, however, it would have been nice to have some specifics.

I'm surprised dealers aren't required by law to disclose a little more detail if they know of 'material facts' that would affect a customer's decision.

Lexuses35

I just called dealer for title He said lender will hold it til it pays off. I asked whether any structural damage info will be in the title. He said no.

I called lexus service and they said factory warranty will expire on aug 2018. I made an appointment with the lexus collision tomorrow and they will check for structural damage. If there is, they will give me an estimate to fix it.

My only concern was that why they did not mention about structural damage at first. Why they had to wait till the end. When they disclosed at the end, I already decided that I will buy this car. It was hard to walk out.

Carfax did not show any record. Perhaps carfax computer system is not updated yet. Will display in their report later?

I could go back to the dealer and try to return the car and ask them to find me another car or money back? or
Just keep driving.

Your opinion would really help.

amphiprion

As someone so kindly put it, the dealer was not above board... The title will not necessarily contain the damage information literally, as in it won't tell you what specifics happened to the car, but did this dealer answer whether it was a clear title? Ask for a copy of it and see for yourself. It's possible it is branded as: Rebuilt, Salvage, Irreparable, Buyback or other. In which case, if you plan on keeping the car forever it won't matter as far as value... But if you ever plan on selling, you will have a harder time for obvious reasons.

As time goes on, your options will become limited as far as returning the car and being made whole again. If he can tell and show you (can you really trust this person at their word at this point) that the title is clear, that will at least offer you some level of peace of mind.

Good luck

jloftus

I don't know. They know from experience to wait til you're on board bf disclosing something like that. Which almost makes me think there is some
legal requirement to disclose, which might mean they should have given you details. But maybe you didn't ask for further details. Consult with an attorney?

It's very strange that while they were sitting down with you, right before you signed, they just said, 'oh by the way, this car has 'structural damage', but
we're not going to give you any details.

Is it standard for the lender to hold the title? You might ask if you could at least get a copy of it.

Is the Lexus collision where you're taking it the body shop for the same dealer? I wouldn't take it to the same place - there's an obvious
conflict of interest there. Take to a different Lexus dealer maybe, or even an independent body shop.

At least it's still under warranty.

lesz

It may not be what you want to hear, but, if it was me, I'd be trying to get my money back, and I'd walk away. As amphiprion points out, a car with a branded title is always going to be worth significantly less when it comes time for you to sell it or trade it, and you might even have trouble finding a buyer for it. Also, without a lot more information, you have no idea what you are getting into with regard to problems with the car, expensive repairs, etc.

With regard to the Carfax report, Carfax reports are not particularly meaningful. Again, information only shows up on the report if someone has reported it, and, often, even serious damage never gets reported and added to the Carfax data base. If something does show up on a Carfax report, you know that it happened, but absence of something on a Carfax report does not necessarily mean that it didn't happen.

There are a lot of nice 2013 or 2014 ES vehicles available for not much more than you are paying for this one, and whatever you might be saving by buying this one is likely going to be more than offset either by repairs that are needed and/or by reduced re-sale value of this car.

Good luck.

lesz

But, if any repairs were made necessary by collision damage, the warranty would be voided and those repairs would not be covered.

Lexuses35

As I said, the dealer told me title will be clear. What he means I do not know. Whether title will display branded info later, I do not know. He told me I cant get the copy of the title until i pay it off. Docs that he gave me has nothing but sales and as is contracts. What if I paid off the car down the road then I see the branded title, I will be in trouble. I dont know if I am keeping the car for a long time or not. It depends. What should I ask now to dealer that says I will have clear title in future to avoid any future confusion with anyone? They also told me they dont know who will be the lender. I will receive doc in the mail in about 2 weeks. Do you not think lender also should be skeptical to lend me money when car has branded title? I am new to this thing. I am confused.

Ratchey

Depending on the dealer you bought it from, the salesman may or may not have known there was damage. A bigger dealership, they wouldn't have been made aware. A very small dealership with 2 or 3 people working, probably would have been aware. The reason for this is that the car was probably repaired after an accident. Could have been anytime during the last 2-3 years. They traded in the car, got below bluebook for trade in because of the branded title (not the damage) and went on their merry way. That dealer dumped the car at auction, and your dealer picked it up for about 17-19K. They put it in the lot for 26K or whatever, ad may or may not have said branded title (most people never even notice that little part) and you come in to buy it. Unless specifically told, the salesman wouldn't be aware of the damage. You had your own mechanic look at it and he didn't see the damage (he may have only looked at the engine which is why there are companies that do 180 point inspections to check for structural damage). Even the finance guy may not have known until he got to the part of the title transfer and then found the info about the damage. They disclosed it to you at that point.

It is also possible they all knew and just didn't say anything. Not illegal but not ethical as you were notified prior to final signoff. You cannot take the car back unless you have a written guarantee with a certain number of day satisfaction guarantee. There is no cooling off period with used cars. Sold as is.

Not all shops report to car fax. It doesn't make them good or bad shops. I have a car that sustained $1800 damage. Enough that they were willing to total the car. But because they had authorized the original repairs, I had them repaint the whole car before they determined that they wanted to total it. The damage was not severe, new bumper, new tail lights and a dent in the rear hatch. Very reputable shop. The paint job was $2500 (more than the car was worth) all handled through a major insurance company with lifetime warranty on the repairs. This was 2 years ago and none of it shows on Carfax. So it happens.

The repairs on your car have been made. They were good enough for your mechanic to not see them. They were good enough for you not to see them. If the car drove straight, no additional noises, no weird tire wear, braking and such were all good, then you probably have yourself a decently repaired car that should last a long time.

The title will only be marked with Branded, Salvage, or what ever term your state uses. There will be no other info on there. THere are several other services that you can look at like AutoCheck, VIncheckpro and Vin Audit that may contain the info you are looking for. Also there may be a tag on body of the car somewhere. I bought a 4Runner that was being sold as certified (it was pulled during negotiations as it was 1K miles over the limit). Found out later the car had been in an accident when I found the hood had been repainted and found a body shop sticker on the front radiator support while underneath installing an LED light.Had several parts removed before I found it. The 4Runner was only a couple months old when it had been damaged but it was not reported anywhere.