ES350 FWD Bad Weather Handling
01-29-16, 05:16 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
I'm looking to buy a 2014/15 ES350 and am surprised to see that AWD is not an option. I currently have a Acura RL with AWD and along with looking at the Acura RLX/TLX am also looking at the Infiniti Q50/70. Both the Acura and Infiniti models offer AWD options, so wondering why Lexus does not on the ES. I live in the DC area so winters are not that harsh, but want to make sure I have a car that handles well in bad weather. Would like to hear from ES owners, especially in areas up north on how it handles in the bad winter weather. Thanks
Around here I would not use snow performance as a huge decision point when selecting a new car. Yes we get some snow, but you know as well as I do its sporadic, some years we get hammered, sometimes we go years and years with no snow at all. Not worth it to buy winter tires here either.
AWD is way better, no doubt about it, but I got around just fine in my FWD ES sedans in the snow, and my 2003 didn't even have VSC or TRAC (it was a weird time in the production run when none of them came with it, it was fully loaded otherwise). For most of the years I drove the ES I did not have another snow car in the house either, as my wife had a FWD Toyota Prius which was terrible in the snow (older Prius' had overactive traction control systems that made snow driving impossible).
Just remember that contrary to common thought FWD has some inherent dynamic flaws in the snow which can be VERY dangerous. The drive wheels are the steering wheels, so when you loose traction trying to accelerate, you loose steering as well. They are also very front heavy, which means that understeer (front end plow) is also a big issue in the snow. Again...when the front end is plowing...you have no steering.
But, go slow and be careful and on those 2 or 3 days a year we have snow you will be just fine.
If you like the ES, need to be in that price point and really want AWD I would consider a Hyundai Genesis.
01-30-16, 06:48 AM
#17
Just remember that contrary to common thought FWD has some inherent dynamic flaws in the snow which can be VERY dangerous. The drive wheels are the steering wheels, so when you loose traction trying to accelerate, you loose steering as well. They are also very front heavy, which means that understeer (front end plow) is also a big issue in the snow. Again...when the front end is plowing...you have no steering.
Waiting to be enlightened...
01-30-16, 07:28 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
I used to feel the same way until I took an advanced driving course years ago, they put us in skid cars that were RWD and FWD and put us in several situations you would encounter when driving in the snow to show the dynamic limitations of each. The purpose of the module was to show people that FWD cars were not as safe to drive in the snow as they thought.
Under normal circumstances you're correct you can take your foot off the gas and it will come out of the under steer, but like I mentioned above in a situation where you're coming down a hill to a turn and you start to under steer, there's so much weight an inertia just coming off the gas isn't going to do it, you're way more likely to loose control of the car.
In a RWD car with snow tires you negate a lot of the traction issues, and you don't have that dynamic limitation. Now like I said, snow tires here don't make sense. He'll be fine with FWD be just needs to be cognizant.
In any case I've been driving for almost 20 years. Maybe not as long as you but I'm not a new driver lol
Under normal circumstances you're correct you can take your foot off the gas and it will come out of the under steer, but like I mentioned above in a situation where you're coming down a hill to a turn and you start to under steer, there's so much weight an inertia just coming off the gas isn't going to do it, you're way more likely to loose control of the car.
In a RWD car with snow tires you negate a lot of the traction issues, and you don't have that dynamic limitation. Now like I said, snow tires here don't make sense. He'll be fine with FWD be just needs to be cognizant.
In any case I've been driving for almost 20 years. Maybe not as long as you but I'm not a new driver lol
01-30-16, 05:49 PM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
When I replied to this originally I was on the fly, but now that I'm in front of the computer I want to elaborate. Check out this link:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html
This outlines what I was shown in that course, an excerpt from the article:
The end result of what this author is saying is that with this knowledge and adapting your driving behavior to it FWD is superior in the snow, that was not the point that the instructor that taught me was trying to make, his feeling was that the innate dynamic differences were so contrary to what people's initial reactions were that in general he regards FWD vehicles as unsafe in the snow, but his rationale was the same his conclusion was just different.
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html
This outlines what I was shown in that course, an excerpt from the article:
Skids in Front Wheel Drive
People are being killed in FWD cars every day by following the conventional "wisdom." Let's take a look at why:
The car enters a corner or curve. The driver finds that it "fails to negotiate," meaning that it isn't turning the corner like it should - due to driving too fast for the existing road condition, of course. So at this point, which may easily be the first time for the hapless driver of the FWD who has suddenly found himself in over his head. So, he (or she) follows the natural reflex action, which is also the conventional "wisdom," and lets off completely on the gas pedal. Now, what happens?
This time, the rear end doesn't slew around, pointing the car into the curve. No, instead, engine braking having just been applied to the front, steering wheels, they lock up, and ALL STEERING HAS NOW DISAPPEARED. The car proceeds to go in a straight line, off the end of the corner, into whatever is on the outside. On a right hand curve, this will entail first crossing the oncoming lane or lanes, and then, if that has been done without encountering any logging trucks or other fast-moving (in the wrong direction!) obstacles, then there is often a tree, cliff, river bank, or rock face to complicate the experience. On a left hand curve, the car goes off the right hand side of the road, into the ditch, guardrail, snowbank (good), river (bad), or whatever it encounters before stopping. No fun!
Obviously, this was a bad choice. The natural First Reaction, letting off on the throttle, and thus braking the front wheels, and losing ALL of what insufficient traction there was,was the wrong thing to do. Yet, not everybody is a rally driver, and the full-on extreme cornering practice described above is not a skill at everyone's fingertips. So what should the "normal" driver of a FWD car do to prepare him/herself for the day when the car gets into that dreaded "failure to negotiate" mode?
THE CORRECT FIRST ACTION
Is obviously NOT to "let off completely on the gas pedal." No, in fact a good BASIC first reaction is to apply SOME gas pedal with the right foot, and at the same time, apply SOME brake with the left foot. The slight braking of the rear wheels will bring on some slewing around of the rear of the car, and the braking of the front wheels will be offset by the power applied to them at the same time. In other words, the effect will be about the same as if you'd let off on the throttle on a rear wheel drive car.
NOW FOR THE FRONT WHEEL DRIVE DIFFERENCE!
But you're in a better position, because you can also vary the power to the front wheels with the gas pedal, and "hunt" for a throttle opening that will give the best traction, as you steer INTO the curve. If you find the traction window, which you usually will, you will be able to make the front end "claw" its way arond the corner. So, once you learn to drive a FWD in snow, is it better? You Bet it is!
People are being killed in FWD cars every day by following the conventional "wisdom." Let's take a look at why:
The car enters a corner or curve. The driver finds that it "fails to negotiate," meaning that it isn't turning the corner like it should - due to driving too fast for the existing road condition, of course. So at this point, which may easily be the first time for the hapless driver of the FWD who has suddenly found himself in over his head. So, he (or she) follows the natural reflex action, which is also the conventional "wisdom," and lets off completely on the gas pedal. Now, what happens?
This time, the rear end doesn't slew around, pointing the car into the curve. No, instead, engine braking having just been applied to the front, steering wheels, they lock up, and ALL STEERING HAS NOW DISAPPEARED. The car proceeds to go in a straight line, off the end of the corner, into whatever is on the outside. On a right hand curve, this will entail first crossing the oncoming lane or lanes, and then, if that has been done without encountering any logging trucks or other fast-moving (in the wrong direction!) obstacles, then there is often a tree, cliff, river bank, or rock face to complicate the experience. On a left hand curve, the car goes off the right hand side of the road, into the ditch, guardrail, snowbank (good), river (bad), or whatever it encounters before stopping. No fun!
Obviously, this was a bad choice. The natural First Reaction, letting off on the throttle, and thus braking the front wheels, and losing ALL of what insufficient traction there was,was the wrong thing to do. Yet, not everybody is a rally driver, and the full-on extreme cornering practice described above is not a skill at everyone's fingertips. So what should the "normal" driver of a FWD car do to prepare him/herself for the day when the car gets into that dreaded "failure to negotiate" mode?
THE CORRECT FIRST ACTION
Is obviously NOT to "let off completely on the gas pedal." No, in fact a good BASIC first reaction is to apply SOME gas pedal with the right foot, and at the same time, apply SOME brake with the left foot. The slight braking of the rear wheels will bring on some slewing around of the rear of the car, and the braking of the front wheels will be offset by the power applied to them at the same time. In other words, the effect will be about the same as if you'd let off on the throttle on a rear wheel drive car.
NOW FOR THE FRONT WHEEL DRIVE DIFFERENCE!
But you're in a better position, because you can also vary the power to the front wheels with the gas pedal, and "hunt" for a throttle opening that will give the best traction, as you steer INTO the curve. If you find the traction window, which you usually will, you will be able to make the front end "claw" its way arond the corner. So, once you learn to drive a FWD in snow, is it better? You Bet it is!
01-30-16, 07:04 PM
#20
Phew...after reading all that I started to wonder how I have managed to drive in Canadian winters (including living in mountainous areas) with primarily front wheel drive vehicles since the 1980's and survive. Never an accident, never drove off into the ditch, etc.
Vast majority of winter mishaps are caused by one thing and that is travelling too fast for the road conditions.
Vast majority of winter mishaps are caused by one thing and that is travelling too fast for the road conditions.
01-31-16, 07:57 AM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
Everybody is free to make their own conclusions. If you had been driving those skid cars though, the difference is pretty clear.
02-01-16, 01:08 AM
#23
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A couple of years back, my acura tls lost traction on a sudden freeze black ice on my commute home. When i left work, it was 35 degrees....but in the park where i drive home, it mustve been colder. I turned left, into a turn, surrounded by cars left, front and behind me. I felt my tail pull out...luckily, i played GT3 a lot and the reaction to rev the gas in spurts while turn steering to the right kept my car on the road. At one point, i was almost perpendicular to the road (i was looking straight at the car to my left). When my tires finally found traction, it lurched hard to the right. I immediately turned the wheel left and stepped on the brakes. I never strayed from the lane during the loss of traction. I slid out of lane to the right when my tires found traction again, and luckily, i was able to stop on the shoulder. I was traveling about 30 mph when the slide happened.
I dont know if rwd would have made a difference, but i could feel my front end coming back in control while revving the engine..it was tring to pull me back into lane...of course, i had VSC so i'm sure the car was applying some brakes without my knowledge...
I dont know if rwd would have made a difference, but i could feel my front end coming back in control while revving the engine..it was tring to pull me back into lane...of course, i had VSC so i'm sure the car was applying some brakes without my knowledge...
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