mcmonline

Hey guys,

Hubby taking me back today to negotiate on the ES 350 - red with parchment interior. We stopped in briefly before another appointment yesterday so couldn't stay long (but still there for 1.5 hrs!). Of course I loved it after the test drive. Looking at 2014 w/ back up camera. Not many since most had the nav pac which I don't need. But as we were getting ready to go they "found" a 2013 with nav that they said they could deal better on. The price they quoted for the 2013 with Nav was $39,698 before taxes. For the 2014 without the nav but with the backup camera was $40,303. I normally research these things better but don't have time now. My husband is so sweet, he is trying to distract me from today - the one month anniversary of my dad's death. He is really bent on purchasing me a new car today. I want to drive the Toyota Avalon before deciding though but he said we might as well get what I've always wanted. Love that man! Ok, so can you pros help me out? Are these "good prices" or is there room for more pencil sharpening? I'm not an unreasonable person, but I want to feel like I got the best deal I can. I am usually a pretty shrewd negotiator on cars, but like I said, this is sort of a surprise and rushed (I know, not a good way to negotiate)! Thanks for all your help!

Monica

jonmanch

Price the car out on Kelly Blue Book ( kbb.com ) with all of the accessories the cars have. It will show you what the dealer paid for it.

Also, dealers with high volume do get back additional money from Lexus at the end of each month or quarter, so there is room for them to negotiate. Also, remember 2014 and 2013 are basically the same car if you meant to say you are buying an ES not a GS with a few minor adjustments. The 2013 is now a year old car wise for resale purposes, but if you are going to keep it, get the best deal.

lesz

For anyone to be able to evaluate whether a price is good or not, he/she would need to know exactly how the car is equipped. But here are a few general guidelines.

First, I am assuming that you are talking about an ES, not a GS.

For the 2013 ES, the invoice price of the vehicle should be very close to 90-91% of the sticker price. At this point in the year and with 2014 vehicles having been available for a while now, you should be able to buy a 2013 for below invoice price. How far below invoice will depend quite a bit on your geographical area, how many Lexus dealers are nearby and competing with each other, how large their inventories of 2013 vehicles are, etc. If you are in southern California, pricing should be as good or better than it would be anywhere, and you should be able to buy the vehicle for quite a bit below the invoice price.

Also, make sure that the dealer isn't padding profit by adding dealer installed options such as paint protection plans, interior protection plans, nitrogen-filled tires, etc., which will always be very high markup items, and know that, if you are interested in buying an extended warranty, such extended warranties are the usually the largest profit generators for the dealership, and the markup on them is commonly several hundred percent.

Sorry that it isn't possible to be more specific, but the 90-91% guideline for the invoice price should give you a simple baseline from which to work.

Good luck.

mcmonline

Thanks jonmanch! I'll do that. Yes, I meant to say "ES", not "GS". I edited that.

azn103

Look in the threads, there should be a list of prices of what people bought their ES350/ES300h for.

Canesguy

Good advice as well as the previous comments.

Kansas

Never buy a car from a dealer who refuses to disclose the invoice price and tell you what rebates will be received by the dealer from the distributor. Full disclosure turns the purchase into an enjoyable experience for both sides. Treat the purchase as if you were buying business equipment - no emotions.

"Walk" - no ... run - from any dealer who refuses to disclose.

Don't beat up the dealer. He needs to make a fair profit - but no more than that.

If you have a "trade-in", keep the two transactions completely separate or sell your current car yourself. The only vehicles you ever want to trade-in are junkers that have so little value that even non-profits don't want them as a tax deductible donation.

lesz

At the same time, buyers should be aware of the fact that it is not uncommon for (unscrupulous) dealers to prepare their own "fake" invoices with prices significantly higher than those that would be shown on a true invoice and to present those fake invoices to potential buyers. In just the last couple of months on this board, people have posted the prices shown on alleged invoices by the dealers from whom they have bought their vehicles, and, in more than a few cases, those purported invoice prices were two or three thousand dollars higher than what the actual invoice price should have been. It isn't that hard for a customer to independently determine the true invoice price by spending 5 minutes on any of several internet sites, and, as I posted above, for the 2013 ES, using 90-91% of MSRP will get you very close to the actual invoice price.



I agree 100% with that statement. Understand that car dealers have lots of ways to pad their profits, whether they be using high markup dealer installed options, selling extended warranties, undervaluing trade-ins, adding on excessive administrative and processing fees, finance or lease terms, or simply being dishonest. But they do have the right to make a reasonable profit, and, should you have the need to have the assistance of the dealership in resolving some issue down the road, you don't want, when you call the dealership, to have them think "this is the guy who made me work for 6 hours to make $50". Also, know that people who sell cars will tell you that it is not uncommon for them to make their biggest profits from the customers who walked out of the dealership thinking that they got the best deals and that they somehow skunked the dealership. The goal of the customer should be to arm himself/herself with as much information as possible and to use that information to negotiate a price that is good but that is also fair to the dealership. Trying to squeeze out every cent from the dealer's profits is what often leads to a customer not even recognizing how a skilled salesperson has managed to pad his/her profits while the customer was in a state of being overjoyed by thinking that he/she had taken the dealer to the cleaners.

thermo

I like to use 10% off the sticker, give or take, as a gauge.

mikeys350

You can get a great deal being in southern California. I negotiated my wifes 14 es through the Internet and text from different dealerships down there. In the end I had my local bakersfield dealer match a "quote" I got from down south. The asked for an email showing them I actually got that said deal so they "can show their bosses why they were "taking a loss" on the car", which I know is all bs. I copied an email I had gotten from a dealership down south and changed their actual quote number to a number 500 bucks less before showing them a picture of the email.

Go to the thread showing what everyone paid to help you out. Maybe print it out and take it to them telling them you want that price since you know it's possible for a quick sale

Kansas

The problem with the "10% off the sticker" and "90-91% of the sticker price" techniques is that it leads a person to dealing in generalities instead of facts. Always work with hard, cold facts. Knowledge is power so have all your ducks in a row and have just as much information as the dealer salesman has. And don't play games if you don't want to dealer to - none of this falsifying quotes from other dealers.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with this nonsense. I spent most of my working life with the largest provider of insurance services to franchised auto dealers which also provided training to those crafty F&I salesmen on how to extract the most money from customers during the closing. I only have to mention the name of the company from which I retired and sometimes drop a name or two to be treated like an insider and get full disclosure with no questions asked.

My advice includes ... never finance a car through a car dealer. Actually, never buy a vehicle you can't afford to buy by writing a check using money you already have. Even better, do what we did last year and put the vehicle purchase cost on a credit card, pay it off the next month and get massive frequent flyer/hotel points. Never borrow to buy any depreciating asset. Never use a personal lease to obtain a vehicle. Never buy an extended warranty - yep, we were a major seller of those. And don't give the F&I closer more than a minute of your time.

If you are not comfortable with a fact base negotiation, I strongly recommend using a buying service. Even a buying service at Costco (full disclosure: we are Costco shareholders) can save money although it will easily add $500 to $1,500 to what you could have negotiated on your own.

lesz

With the 2013 ES, the invoice prices as a percent of MSRP on both the vehicle itself and of every available option and package was at the same 90-91% level. When I checked about a dozen different vehicles using 90.5%, I came within $20 of the correct invoice price on each one. While that may not be "dealing with an exact fact", it is a great tool to get you extremely close to the invoice price, and I'd rather use that as an available tool as opposed to trusting that the alleged invoice that the dealership is showing me is, in fact, a true invoice.

One of the pieces of advice that I can remember my parents (whose view of financial management was formed when they grew up during the Great Depression) saying over and over again was that the only acceptable form of credit was 100% down and $0 per month. I attribute following that advice when I was younger and never using credit and having to pay interest as a major reason why, at this point in my life, I am able to buy just about anything that I want to buy without having any worries at all about whether I can afford it.

You almost have to have been involved with the business to be able to realize just how insanely high the markups are on extended warranties and to appreciate what an extreme profit generator they are for a dealership.

mikeys350

Falsifying a quote is nothing different than them showing me an "invoice" price of 42,500 or so when I had already learned through here that that number is a big lie. That was the only "written" quote I had from anyone. They all mostly give verbal quotes.

mcmonline

Thank you all for your assistance. The Lexus dealer came off the MSRP 9% (before TTL) - which is right on what you said. But in the long run, I could not justify the $6,000 difference between the ES 350 and the Toyota Avalon Touring edition so I am now the proud new owner of a Blizzard Pearl Avalon. I know it is each to their own. I like the exterior of the Avalon better but the interior of the Lexus better. The Avalon also drives a little firmer. Toyota came of the MSRP 13%. Both of these were 2013 vehicles. OK, I'm getting off this board so I don't get buyer's remorse! Thanks everyone!

Lexusxoxo

Congrats!! Enjoy your new Avalon