$25,000 Chevy Impala Rides Better Than The ES
07-29-13, 04:48 PM
#46
Lexus Champion
Only time will tell, but look at the CR's historical data on owner's feedback of GM's reliability. That should tell you something no matter how nice things look when brand new.
07-29-13, 06:01 PM
#47
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"Wait and see what modern day GM can do"
Based on LexBob2's comments "I noticed that the LaCrosse (same platform as Impala/XTS?) is not recommended due to Below Average Reliability.", I think modern day GM still can't do it.
I doubt that GM could ever provide the quality and extremely high level of service that Lexus provides, nor will I ever consider trying another GM vehicle as long as Lexus/Toyota are around..
Based on LexBob2's comments "I noticed that the LaCrosse (same platform as Impala/XTS?) is not recommended due to Below Average Reliability.", I think modern day GM still can't do it.
I doubt that GM could ever provide the quality and extremely high level of service that Lexus provides, nor will I ever consider trying another GM vehicle as long as Lexus/Toyota are around..
I had a engine oil leak in my 2012 RX after 5 months. I brought it back 4 different times, they keep it for more than 3 weeks total and they still could NOT fix the oil leak..
That is with different techs including there so called " best " trying to find and fix it.
Under the Lemon law all they get is 4 tries, you don't have to let them try any more times.
I traded it for a 2013 300h and lost a LOT of money on the leaking RX.
07-29-13, 07:34 PM
#48
Lead Lap
Do you mean the free coffee and bagels ?
I had a engine oil leak in my 2012 RX after 5 months. I brought it back 4 different times, they keep it for more than 3 weeks total and they still could NOT fix the oil leak..
That is with different techs including there so called " best " trying to find and fix it.
Under the Lemon law all they get is 4 tries, you don't have to let them try any more times.
I traded it for a 2013 300h and lost a LOT of money on the leaking RX.
I had a engine oil leak in my 2012 RX after 5 months. I brought it back 4 different times, they keep it for more than 3 weeks total and they still could NOT fix the oil leak..
That is with different techs including there so called " best " trying to find and fix it.
Under the Lemon law all they get is 4 tries, you don't have to let them try any more times.
I traded it for a 2013 300h and lost a LOT of money on the leaking RX.
07-29-13, 09:24 PM
#49
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I truly feel for you man. I know first hand about an unfixable car. Had one with a VW and it too was an oil leak. This was prior to a Lemon Law in PA so I lost out too. I would think that yours would be covered though. Point is, service can suck with any brand. I still believe that Lexus is above the rest but unfortunately there will always be exceptions.
#1 ...they say it's better to get a lawyer, but not necessary.
#2... I would have 6mos.more to drive my Rx that leaks eng. oil in my driveway and garage. (even thou it was only about a teaspoon in a day.) I had drippings all over the driveway and garage already.
# 3 ... Take a chance on the 6 mo. results.
I had enough and was not willing to wait 6mos. The Dealer gave me about 3K off the sticker of the 2013 300h, But I lost $8,200. on the 2012RX trading it in. I had it for less than10 months, and it had 6,000 miles on it.
I am not saying a Chev. dealer would be better, it's more about the techs. that work on your car.
I have had 7 new GM cars and I have been lucky that I never had a problem with any of them.
Only 3 of the 21 New cars I bought had problems.
Of the 3 New Lexus I owned 2 had problems,
my 2007 ES350 & the 2013 RX350.........The only other New car with a problem was my 1998 Chrysler.
I now have a 2011 Chev. Tahoe and a C7 Corvette on order. I hope my GM luck don't run out.
BTW I love my 2013 Lexus 300h
............But not the Lexus service dept. for good reason.
07-30-13, 04:25 AM
#50
"the quality and extremely high level of service that Lexus provides"
I have had dealings with two local Lexus dealers over the past couple of years, Lexus of Miami and more recently JM Lexus in Margate, Florida. I have received nothing but exceptional service 100% of the time.
FWIW, JM Lexus goes well beyond coffee and bagels!
I have had dealings with two local Lexus dealers over the past couple of years, Lexus of Miami and more recently JM Lexus in Margate, Florida. I have received nothing but exceptional service 100% of the time.
FWIW, JM Lexus goes well beyond coffee and bagels!
07-30-13, 05:34 AM
#51
Lexus Champion
Yes if I was willing to wait about 6 months with the lemon law case.
#1 ...they say it's better to get a lawyer, but not necessary.
#2... I would have 6mos.more to drive my Rx that leaks eng. oil in my driveway and garage. (even thou it was only about a teaspoon in a day.) I had drippings all over the driveway and garage already.
# 3 ... Take a chance on the 6 mo. results.
I had enough and was not willing to wait 6mos. The Dealer gave me about 3K off the sticker of the 2013 300h, But I lost $8,200. on the 2012RX trading it in. I had it for less than10 months, and it had 6,000 miles on it.
I am not saying a Chev. dealer would be better, it's more about the techs. that work on your car.
I have had 7 new GM cars and I have been lucky that I never had a problem with any of them.
Only 3 of the 21 New cars I bought had problems.
Of the 3 New Lexus I owned 2 had problems,
my 2007 ES350 & the 2013 RX350.........The only other New car with a problem was my 1998 Chrysler.
I now have a 2011 Chev. Tahoe and a C7 Corvette on order. I hope my GM luck don't run out.
BTW I love my 2013 Lexus 300h ............But not the Lexus service dept. for good reason.
#1 ...they say it's better to get a lawyer, but not necessary.
#2... I would have 6mos.more to drive my Rx that leaks eng. oil in my driveway and garage. (even thou it was only about a teaspoon in a day.) I had drippings all over the driveway and garage already.
# 3 ... Take a chance on the 6 mo. results.
I had enough and was not willing to wait 6mos. The Dealer gave me about 3K off the sticker of the 2013 300h, But I lost $8,200. on the 2012RX trading it in. I had it for less than10 months, and it had 6,000 miles on it.
I am not saying a Chev. dealer would be better, it's more about the techs. that work on your car.
I have had 7 new GM cars and I have been lucky that I never had a problem with any of them.
Only 3 of the 21 New cars I bought had problems.
Of the 3 New Lexus I owned 2 had problems,
my 2007 ES350 & the 2013 RX350.........The only other New car with a problem was my 1998 Chrysler.
I now have a 2011 Chev. Tahoe and a C7 Corvette on order. I hope my GM luck don't run out.
BTW I love my 2013 Lexus 300h
............But not the Lexus service dept. for good reason.
07-30-13, 07:39 AM
#52
Lead Lap
Yes if I was willing to wait about 6 months with the lemon law case.
#1 ...they say it's better to get a lawyer, but not necessary.
#2... I would have 6mos.more to drive my Rx that leaks eng. oil in my driveway and garage. (even thou it was only about a teaspoon in a day.) I had drippings all over the driveway and garage already.
# 3 ... Take a chance on the 6 mo. results.
I had enough and was not willing to wait 6mos. The Dealer gave me about 3K off the sticker of the 2013 300h, But I lost $8,200. on the 2012RX trading it in. I had it for less than10 months, and it had 6,000 miles on it.
I am not saying a Chev. dealer would be better, it's more about the techs. that work on your car.
I have had 7 new GM cars and I have been lucky that I never had a problem with any of them.
Only 3 of the 21 New cars I bought had problems.
Of the 3 New Lexus I owned 2 had problems,
my 2007 ES350 & the 2013 RX350.........The only other New car with a problem was my 1998 Chrysler.
I now have a 2011 Chev. Tahoe and a C7 Corvette on order. I hope my GM luck don't run out.
BTW I love my 2013 Lexus 300h ............But not the Lexus service dept. for good reason.
#1 ...they say it's better to get a lawyer, but not necessary.
#2... I would have 6mos.more to drive my Rx that leaks eng. oil in my driveway and garage. (even thou it was only about a teaspoon in a day.) I had drippings all over the driveway and garage already.
# 3 ... Take a chance on the 6 mo. results.
I had enough and was not willing to wait 6mos. The Dealer gave me about 3K off the sticker of the 2013 300h, But I lost $8,200. on the 2012RX trading it in. I had it for less than10 months, and it had 6,000 miles on it.
I am not saying a Chev. dealer would be better, it's more about the techs. that work on your car.
I have had 7 new GM cars and I have been lucky that I never had a problem with any of them.
Only 3 of the 21 New cars I bought had problems.
Of the 3 New Lexus I owned 2 had problems,
my 2007 ES350 & the 2013 RX350.........The only other New car with a problem was my 1998 Chrysler.
I now have a 2011 Chev. Tahoe and a C7 Corvette on order. I hope my GM luck don't run out.
BTW I love my 2013 Lexus 300h
............But not the Lexus service dept. for good reason.
07-30-13, 08:12 AM
#53
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Really? Prior to my new ES, I had a 2010 Cadillac SRX. Spent more days at the dealer than my previous 8 cars combined. A noise from the driver door was in 4 times without being properly fixed. Digital clock would not hold daylight savings changes, requiring replacement of infotainment unit--twice. DOA one night, needing tow to dealer and several electronic fixes. Major cabin leak flooded the carpet. Add it up. Minor nuisances and major problems, mechanical and electrical. I tried giving GM a chance. I'll stick with the imports.
07-30-13, 08:24 AM
#54
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07-30-13, 12:22 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
"Wait and see what modern day GM can do"
Based on LexBob2's comments "I noticed that the LaCrosse (same platform as Impala/XTS?) is not recommended due to Below Average Reliability.", I think modern day GM still can't do it.
I doubt that GM could ever provide the quality and extremely high level of service that Lexus provides, nor will I ever consider trying another GM vehicle as long as Lexus/Toyota are around..
Based on LexBob2's comments "I noticed that the LaCrosse (same platform as Impala/XTS?) is not recommended due to Below Average Reliability.", I think modern day GM still can't do it.
I doubt that GM could ever provide the quality and extremely high level of service that Lexus provides, nor will I ever consider trying another GM vehicle as long as Lexus/Toyota are around..
I personally would not buy any Toyota model right now, they are just unappealing to me, cheap inside. I wouldn't buy an ES any longer.
I drove the XTS and found it very nice but too big. Quality is easily as nice as a comparably priced Lexus...if not better in lower XTS trims. Same is true of the new ATS, and I'm sure the new CTS. If the CTS had been out when I got the GS I might honestly have one.
Cadillac dealer experience has been very good, it was back in the 90s when my Dad had his Cadillac and everybody I know with a Cadillac raves about it. So...I wouldn't be so closed minded. Can't compare Chevy to Lexus...compare Chevy to Toyota and I have never been impressed by the Toyota service experience.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-30-13 at 12:41 PM.
07-30-13, 01:48 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
We don't know that. You have to give them credit for making great strides, the GM of today and the GM of more tan 3 or 4 years ago is a completely different company. As an American I for one am pleased to see an American car company doing well, and have high hopes that they will continue to do well. As a Toyota/Lexus enthusiast I think the company has slipped considerably at a time when almost everybody else is rapidly improving, pretending thats not the case doesn't do them any good. I can understand your reluctance if you've had a bad experience in the past, but nothing really of that previous company remains.
I can tell you today...I'd much rather have an Impala or Malibu than a Camry. I'd much rather have an Equinox than a Rav4. Toyota has come off of a decade of making boring cars with no flair, chintzy interiors...reliable sure...but even that isn't quite what it used to be. I'm a car guy, I want a nice car not just a reliable driving appliance.
Look at "My100thCar"''s experience with his RX above...issues can happen anywhere. 2010 is still within a growth period, when you have issues as deep as they were at GM it takes time to work through them and improve but they are getting there.
I can tell you today...I'd much rather have an Impala or Malibu than a Camry. I'd much rather have an Equinox than a Rav4. Toyota has come off of a decade of making boring cars with no flair, chintzy interiors...reliable sure...but even that isn't quite what it used to be. I'm a car guy, I want a nice car not just a reliable driving appliance.
Originally Posted by CHardo
Really? Prior to my new ES, I had a 2010 Cadillac SRX. Spent more days at the dealer than my previous 8 cars combined. A noise from the driver door was in 4 times without being properly fixed. Digital clock would not hold daylight savings changes, requiring replacement of infotainment unit--twice. DOA one night, needing tow to dealer and several electronic fixes. Major cabin leak flooded the carpet. Add it up. Minor nuisances and major problems, mechanical and electrical. I tried giving GM a chance. I'll stick with the imports.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-30-13 at 02:02 PM.
07-30-13, 04:14 PM
#58
Japanese automakers are still doing it right:
http://www.wheels.ca/news/japan-on-t...bility-survey/
"Toyota Motor Corp.’s Scion, Lexus and Toyota brands took the top three spots"
http://www.wheels.ca/news/japan-on-t...bility-survey/
"Toyota Motor Corp.’s Scion, Lexus and Toyota brands took the top three spots"
07-31-13, 07:15 AM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Building reliable cars, sure. My issue is with cars that offer the style and quality I want. In the midmarket price range sure something like a Camry is very reliable, but there are a lot of options there now that offer more style and content and you are starting to see the Camry's hold on market dominance waning. Now, you can get style and quality wrapped up in reliability in the Accord...I don't understand why anybody would want a Camry when you could have an Accord. I can understand why one would be wary of US automakers because of reliability...
If reliability was the ONLY consideration thats one thing, and for a lot of buyers who just want an appliance it is, but for people who want more out of their cars I think Toyota and now even Lexus is going in the wrong direction. I think even they realize that though, the latest set of Toyotas is a little flashier, they made that one year upgrade to the materials in the Camry in response to reviews and customer feedback, when you look at the IS material quality is significantly better than the new ES at the same price point.
Outside of the Jeep I have bought EXCLUSIVELY Toyota products since 1998. I bought the Jeep because I looked at the offerings in that category, the 4Runner and the Highlander and found them really below what I wanted in terms of style, capability, and interior quality (especially the Highlander with its headliner that reminded me of a cardboard McDonalds drink tray). The Jeep got me everything I wanted...at a cost of probably $7,000 less than a comparable Toyota product. Now, my experience with the Jeep has not been super in terms of little annoying reliability things...but its been good enough to know I could never trade it on a current Toyota, even if it were more reliable.
What we should want to see is Toyota building cars that are reliable, and are well built with great interiors, feel upscale and that people who love cars and driving WANT to drive. They CAN do that, but if we just praise their efforts and buy their products when they are as chintzy as a lot of what they have been selling over the last 10 years then they won't.
Thats why we should welcome GM doing well as Toyota enthusiasts, because it will force Toyota to do more. I'm thrilled to find out an Impala rides better than the ES...because maybe the next ES will ride even better.
If reliability was the ONLY consideration thats one thing, and for a lot of buyers who just want an appliance it is, but for people who want more out of their cars I think Toyota and now even Lexus is going in the wrong direction. I think even they realize that though, the latest set of Toyotas is a little flashier, they made that one year upgrade to the materials in the Camry in response to reviews and customer feedback, when you look at the IS material quality is significantly better than the new ES at the same price point.
Outside of the Jeep I have bought EXCLUSIVELY Toyota products since 1998. I bought the Jeep because I looked at the offerings in that category, the 4Runner and the Highlander and found them really below what I wanted in terms of style, capability, and interior quality (especially the Highlander with its headliner that reminded me of a cardboard McDonalds drink tray). The Jeep got me everything I wanted...at a cost of probably $7,000 less than a comparable Toyota product. Now, my experience with the Jeep has not been super in terms of little annoying reliability things...but its been good enough to know I could never trade it on a current Toyota, even if it were more reliable.
What we should want to see is Toyota building cars that are reliable, and are well built with great interiors, feel upscale and that people who love cars and driving WANT to drive. They CAN do that, but if we just praise their efforts and buy their products when they are as chintzy as a lot of what they have been selling over the last 10 years then they won't.
Thats why we should welcome GM doing well as Toyota enthusiasts, because it will force Toyota to do more. I'm thrilled to find out an Impala rides better than the ES...because maybe the next ES will ride even better.
Last edited by SW17LS; 07-31-13 at 07:25 AM.
07-31-13, 11:34 PM
#60
"What we should want to see is Toyota building cars that are reliable, and are well built with great interiors"
Lexus has them - but the ES300h and ES350h are simply 'entry' level vehicles and are priced/designed accordingly. Lexus does have other more luxurious choices, including the GS and LS. The GS, for example, is very similar to the ES but has a beautifully appointed interior (leather in place of all the plastic panels) and I believe even has automatic folding mirrors, another feature some have requested.. The LS, Lexus' flagship vehicle, is second to none in every regard.
Many of the complaints/requested interior upgrades you read about in this forum are available, just not in the ES line. For its price, what you get represents an exceptional value in today's marketplace, especially when it comes to reliability and safety.
Is the ES a good choice for many? According to the sales figures for the vehicle, absolutely. Will it beat out GM in reliability years from now. Who knows but if I had to bet, my money would be on Lexus and not GM. Lexus has an outstanding track record - GM, not so much!
It would be interesting to revisit this topic in 3-4 years after the reliability of each vehicle has been tested over time in real world usage.
Lexus has them - but the ES300h and ES350h are simply 'entry' level vehicles and are priced/designed accordingly. Lexus does have other more luxurious choices, including the GS and LS. The GS, for example, is very similar to the ES but has a beautifully appointed interior (leather in place of all the plastic panels) and I believe even has automatic folding mirrors, another feature some have requested.. The LS, Lexus' flagship vehicle, is second to none in every regard.
Many of the complaints/requested interior upgrades you read about in this forum are available, just not in the ES line. For its price, what you get represents an exceptional value in today's marketplace, especially when it comes to reliability and safety.
Is the ES a good choice for many? According to the sales figures for the vehicle, absolutely. Will it beat out GM in reliability years from now. Who knows but if I had to bet, my money would be on Lexus and not GM. Lexus has an outstanding track record - GM, not so much!
It would be interesting to revisit this topic in 3-4 years after the reliability of each vehicle has been tested over time in real world usage.
Last edited by ElliotB; 08-01-13 at 04:24 AM.