ES - 6th Gen (2013-2018) Discussion topics related to 2013+ ES models

Next-Gen Lexus ES (ES350 and ES300h confirmed)

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Old 06-01-12, 04:02 AM
  #871  
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I can admit I haven’t paid a lot attention to previous model years ES interiors but the inside of this new ES looks very cheaply made. I give the exterior a solid A. But as I look closely at the interior pics something just doesn’t seem Lexus like. I thought one of the ES strong selling points were always the interior. Lexus shouldn’t put that tacky/hard vinyl look plastic in their car. Yes I know a few others near luxury cars have the same problem just to be fair.

Last edited by rogers2; 06-01-12 at 08:09 AM.
Old 06-01-12, 04:41 AM
  #872  
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Lexus detractors pillory the ES 350 as little more than a rebadged Toyota Camry XLE. But an initial drive of the re-engineered 2013 ES lineup challenges that claim, even though much of the platform and powertrain are shared with the Camry.

The basics: The wheelbase matches that of the Toyota Avalon full-sized sedan, rather than the Camry, giving it extra interior roominess.

The carryover 3.5-liter engine develops 268 hp and is rated at 21/31 mpg in city/highway driving without modern features such as direct injection. It also runs on 87-octane gasoline.

Although it has been panned as a soulless, soporific appliance, the ES 350 zips to 60 mph in 7.1 seconds and turns a 15.1-second quarter-mile time.

The carryover 6-speed automatic transmission is a bit behind competitors' 7- and 8-speed automatics, but shift quality is smooth. The car's sport mode maintains ride comfort while increasing stability through hard corners, but there is no mistaking the ES for a sport sedan.

Notable features: For the first time, the ES line gets a hybrid. The ES 300h uses the base 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine hooked to an electric motor through an electronic continuously variable transmission. It's the same system used in the Toyota Camry Hybrid.

For increased body rigidity, Lexus has reinforced the instrument panel, added floor braces and a rear strut bar and used more ultra high-strength steel throughout.

Standard features include 10 airbags, 17-inch wheels, SmartKey, Bluetooth connectivity and a navigation system with instant traffic reports. The standard 10-way power driver and passenger seats come with faux-leather seating surfaces and improved cushioning for the pelvis and hips.

The base model comes with a moon roof, and there's an optional panoramic frameless glass roof that retracts one panel over another. The base audio system includes a CD player, high-definition radio, eight-channel digital amplifier, auxiliary jack, satellite radio hookup and eight speakers.

For drivers who forget their high beams are on at night, the ES 350 automatically dims them when headlights or taillights are detected ahead. The optional blind spot monitor system detects objects from the rear bumper when backing out of a parking space. The interior paneling on the hybrid edition includes bamboo wood trim.

What Lexus says: "I wanted to design a truly global ES," Toshio Asahi, ES chief engineer said at the media introduction here. "Every decision was considered from a global perspective."

Compromises and shortcomings: The instrument panel and center stack shares design language with the upmarket GS sedan, but the ES version seems to have less content and has a clunky array of buttons oddly reminiscent of a 1980s stereo receiver. The rear seats don't fold down, which is great for lateral stability but lousy for Home Depot runs. The optional 18-inch wheels create substantially more road noise. Normally, Toyota's mileage estimates for its hybrid models are dead on, but despite its claimed 40 mpg, the ES 300h returned only 34 mpg on a 90-minute loop driven sedately.

The market: Globally, Lexus hopes to sell about 100,000 units a year, 50,000 to 60,000 of them in the United States. Prices won't be announced until closer to the car's August on-sale date, but executives said the sticker should remain close to that of the current model's $37,150, including freight. Still, with the strong yen and more content, expect some price bump.

The marketing launch will carry the tag line "Unforgettable" and will attempt to change preconceived opinions about the ES and Lexus in general. Commercials will focus on the style of the car's interior and exterior.

The skinny: The ES is evolutionary and lacks some of the technology leaps of its rivals. The center stack layout is a disaster. But the ride is smooth, and the engine has good power. It likely will retain a good chunk of the buyer base that loves Lexus' customer service and perfectionist engineering -- but good luck trying to conquest someone out of an Audi A4 or BMW 3 series just because the ES is larger.
Old 06-01-12, 04:57 AM
  #873  
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Post Popular Mechanics


On-Sale Date: August 2012

Price: $36,000 to $43,000 (est.)

Competitors:
Acura TL, Lincoln MKZ hybrid

Powertrains:
3.5-liter V-6, 268 hp, 248 lb-ft; 2.5-liter 4-cylinder hybrid, 156 hp, 156 lb-ft; 6-speed auto (with V-6) or planetary integrated with 2 motor/generators (hybrid), FWD

EPA Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 21/31 for V-6, 40/39 for hybrid (est.)

What's New: Replacing one of its stalwarts, Lexus introduces the 6th-generation of the ES sedan this summer, adding a hybrid version for the 1st time. The styling so closely resembles that of the more expensive rear-drive GS line that it can fool even Lexus insiders at 1st glance.

The new ES is only 1 inch longer than the 6-year-old outgoing design, but a 1.8-inch wheelbase stretch and packaging refinements make the rear seat a much more habitable environment for adults. Inside, upgraded materials (including bamboo wood trim in hybrids) and a more user-friendly layout for instruments, navigation screen, and controls give the ES a luxury upgrade. Modern driver-assist features like blind-spot detection and lane departure and cross-traffic warnings also help the Lexus keep up with growing competition.


Tech Tidbit: Similar to the hybrid Toyota Camry, with which it shares a front-drive platform, the ES 300h has a button you can use to tell the car you prefer electric-only drive. It also has 3 drive modes for its electronically controlled transaxle: eco, normal, and sport. In sport, the dashboard-efficiency gauge changes into a tachometer. And while 0-to-60-mph performance of 8.1 seconds won't excite muscle-car fans, it's more than adequate here. With no plug-in recharge mode, the 300h doesn't earn ultimate green cred, but the silky-smooth transitions between electric, assisted, and gas operation mean you'll only notice it's a hybrid.

Driving Character: More taut and controlled than its Camry roots would suggest, the new ES is a better handler than its stablemate and a clear step up from the previous generation. Hardcore driving enthusiasts will still prefer the rear-drive models in the Lexus line, but the ES entertained us on curving roads in and around Oregon's Willamette Valley in ways its predecessor never could have done. We could set the steering angle for a sweeping turn and cut a smooth, single arc without needing to adjust the steering to correct our line—a common flaw in cars like the ES that prioritize a smooth ride.

Lexus says the V-6 model can hit 60 mph in 7.1 seconds, and that may be conservative. The 6-speed transaxle, like that of the hybrid, offers 3 modes selected via console dial.


Favorite Detail: The Mark Levinson audio system uses powerful advanced magnets (introduced on the exotic LFA) to reduce weight in the speaker system—contributing to fuel-economy efforts without losing sound quality.

Driver's Grievance: Depending on driving mode and load, the hybrid will sometimes lock itself into a fixed, elevated rpm setting, its planetary gearbox behaving much like a CVT. Not really objectionable, but not exactly luxurious.


The Bottom Line: 1 of the 2 original Lexus models (along with the flagship LS) introduced in 1989, the ES is the second-best-selling Lexus behind only the RX crossover and boasts an owner base more than a million strong. In other words, there are loyalists out there who've been driving an ES for a long time who will be thrilled by the interior upgrades. Challengers by Buick and Acura had the old model covered, but this new one pushes back. With more expressive styling, better handling, all the modern conveniences, and the available hybrid, the 2013 edition should also help Lexus lower the average age of the ES buyer.

Old 06-01-12, 05:18 AM
  #874  
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interior looks cheaply made? Have you seen the current ES interior?
Old 06-01-12, 05:25 AM
  #875  
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Since its inception in 1989, the Lexus ES line has traded on its core values of composed practicality, restrained styling, and understated luxury. It has worked hard to distance itself from its pedestrian Toyota Camry roots, and it’s not about to compromise its dignity with a flashy makeover just to get the neighbors talking. Let the Lexus LFA and LX lux-UV shoulder the fuel-swilling, in-your-face grandstanding for the brand; the ES is quite content in its role as an amiable friend to the aspirational masses. So when it came time to create the 6th-generation ES, Lexus made sure not to wander far from the same predictable formula that has put more than 1 million examples of the car on the road to date.

Check Me Out, or Don’t


In addition to the still cautious but slightly more-outgoing styling, the redesign yields minor gains in size. The ES350 grows an inch in overall length to 192.7 and 1.7 inches in wheelbase to 111.0; height increases 0.8 inch to 57.1, while width stays the same at 71.7 inches.

Lexus is particularly proud of the ES’s 0.27 coefficient of drag, which it says betters the previous generation’s number by .01. In a quest for improved high-speed stability, tiny aero “stabilizing fins” have been placed on the doorframe covers and rear combination lamps; Lexus says they pull the airstream closer to the body, creating vortices that in turn stabilize the vehicle. Similar fins reside on the underbody covers.


The big news inside is a small increase in seating room. Front-seat passengers gain a minuscule 0.1 inch of headroom and 0.3 inch of shoulder room; increases hardly worth mentioning except to contrast the comparatively large gains made in the back seat where headroom grows by 0.7 inch, and legroom is up a whopping 4.1 inches. Lexus attributes the impetus of this change to emerging markets such as China, where it is quite popular for a car owner to be chauffer-driven on a regular basis. Rear shoulder room is down by 1.3 inches; we’ll assume that this is not a comment on that key Asian demographic.

Plop down into one of the standard 10-way power front seats, and you’ll notice the long, flat dash that reaches from door to door, Lexus’s take on the industry’s move away from the cocooning, driver-focused interiors of a few years back. Across the top erupts a single row of stitching, placed there by the hands of one of Lexus’s takumi craftspeople—according to the company, only 12 or so current employees are capable of such work. Impressive to be sure, but Lexus plans on selling 60,000 2013 ES models in the U.S. alone; someone might want to notify the H.R. department of possible production bottlenecks in the dash-upholstery department.

Smooth Sailing


Although the 268-hp, 3.5-liter V-6 engine carries over from 2012 unchanged, it is now supported by a quartet of active-control engine mounts in pursuit of even lower levels of engine-borne vibration. The mounts’ internal membrane is matched to the frequency of external vibrations and noise, reducing the amount of shake transferred to the body when engine speed is below 900 rpm. Torque, too, is unchanged (248 lb-ft at 4700 rpm), as is the 6-speed automatic transmission that sends power to the front wheels. Curiously, the 2013 ES’s 31-mpg EPA highway rating betters the 2012’s 28 mpg; chalk up the improvement to lower overall weight (Lexus claims a reduction of about 50 pounds) and the aforementioned aero tweaks. City mileage drops from 22 to 21 mpg.

Acceleration is, uh, pleasant, and torque steer is kept in reasonable check. Even with the traction control enabled, a demure squeak can be coaxed from the front tires on takeoff. The steering ratio of the electric power steering has been tightened up to 14.8:1 from the previous generation’s 16.1:1, making for less hand-over-hand action in the twisty bits and parking lots. Rolling through mountain roads at a good pace was an effortless and pleasant task, but far from the ES’s true forte. Your author and his co-driver found themselves repeatedly finding new ways to finish the sentence, “Man, imagine driving this road in a ________,” which should give you some idea of the level of driver engagement we attained in the ES350. The exhaust note is too precise and well behaved for us; in other words, perfect for the ES’s target demographic.


Shifting between the three transmission modes—Normal, Eco, and Sport—reveals significant changes in the ES350’s behavior: Normal keeps the engine in the power band without becoming harsh; Eco reduces throttle response and modifies the A/C’s operation for efficiency; Sport mode quickens throttle response and increases steering effort by 20%. Unsurprisingly, we found the Sport setting the most usable of the bunch. (Those seeking further ES sensory deprivation should look to the new ES300h hybrid, which we also drove.)

A Rolling Wallflower


On the highway, opposite-wound front coil springs and reworked spring rates conspire to provide a tangible improvement in straight-line tracking. Front and rear dampers feature a few internal mods to improve ride quality and stability. And it’s here where the ES350 really shines, becoming a virtually transparent conveyance, shielding its occupants from the outside world behind acoustically insulated glass. Because really, after the important decisions have been made—Premium, Luxury, or neighbor-baiting Ultra Luxury trim; leather-wrapped or wood steering wheel; standard Lexus audio or the sonically accurate Mark Levinson system—need the harried young professional worry about anything else?
Old 06-01-12, 06:06 AM
  #876  
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No car illustrates both the peril and payoff of a luxury marque raiding the corporate parts bin quite like the Lexus ES. Long based on the Toyota Camry, the front-wheel-drive sedan could be seen as on outlier in the Lexus lineup, and yet it's the brand's most popular car. The ES's blue-collar background and blue-blood badge create accessible luxury for buyers and irresistible profits for Toyota Motor Company. It's the drug that neither consumer nor corporation cares to quit.


A Brand in Transition
The new 2013 ES arrives at a pivotal time for the Lexus brand, amidst a philosophical about-face that has produced a 202-mph supercar, birthed a performance sub-brand, and pulled BMW into its competitive set. The ES's reputation as aloof, impassive, and out-of-place is a liability now more than ever. Because no matter how quickly an LFA hits 60 mph or how competent the F Sport models are, the popularity of the ES ensures that it will have a major role in defining the brand.


So Long, Camry
Breaking with tradition, the new ES steps off the Camry platform and onto that of the larger Toyota Avalon. The switch nets a whopping 4.1 inches of extra rear-seat legroom, as the car adds 1.6 inches of additional length. Like the outgoing model, this new ES bears little resemblance to its Toyota counterpart. Unlike the old car, the 2013 version also bears little resemblance to a dinner roll. The fresh design follows that of the new GS sedan, conveying a sense of emotion without being excessively ornamented. The new ES gets its more intense look from its large, pinched grille; the kinked C-pillar; and the sharp edge of the rocker panels.

The interior has undergone an even more dramatic transformation, with the late '90s finally giving way to a modern aesthetic that borrows the tiered, horizontal motif of the LFA with the addition of gentler, curved lines and tasteful complements of traditional wood trim. And just as it was at the brand's outset, Lexus remains fastidious in certain details. For instance, the standard leather dash in this $40,000 car is hand-stitched by 1 of 12 takumi, Toyota's Japanese master craftsmen.

Remote Touch, Lexus's answer to BMW's iDrive and Audi's MMI, is optional and comes with Enform app integration. While the graphics are vastly improved over the original iteration, pushing down on the mouse-like controller to make a selection isn't as precise as the previous thumb button. Integration with the Bing search engine, Yelp business reviews, MovieTickets.com listings, and other apps is a neat feature, but 1 with limited appeal as they become essentially unusable when the vehicle is in motion -- even with a body in the passenger seat. When listening to Pandora Internet Radio, the system will only allow access to 25 stations at speed, an inexplicable frustration that's analogous to locking out certain FM radio frequencies.


Smooth Operator
While the infotainment system falls a bit short of expectations, the ES350's 3.5-liter V-6 that produces 268 hp and 248 lb-ft does the opposite. The engine is plenty powerful and it's genuinely rewarding to experience how the revs build quickly, smoothly, and almost musically toward the top end of the tachometer. The 6-speed automatic is well behaved, though largely unexceptional compared to the fast-acting, telepathic behavior or BMW and Audi's 8-speed automatics. Fuel economy, at 21/31 mpg, comes 2 mpg short of the turbocharged 4-cylinder of the BMW 328i.


Chassis Changes
For the new ES, the steering ratio has been quickened from 16.1:1 to 14.8:1, but the steering response still couldn't be described as "quick." Instead, the ES's steering improves from full-size-truck slow to that of a typical -- but not particularly sporty -- car. Drive Mode Select with eco, normal, and sport settings is standard and alters throttle mapping and the electric power-steering assist. In eco/normal modes, the steering is overassisted and underdamped, reminding us of that old Lexus character we were hoping to leave behind. Sport mode is much more balanced and strikes us as the true "normal." It's not especially heavy, but neither is it artificially energetic.

Body roll is reasonably controlled, but the ES still places the emphasis on a comfortable ride. To that end, the updated car boasts revised suspension components and geometry that calm some of the higher frequency disturbances that made their way to the driver's seat in the previous model. While cabin quietness mostly lived up to our expectations, some of Oregon's coarse road surfaces incited tire roar that was impossible to ignore.


Enter a Hybrid
The 6th-generation ES also introduces the 1st-ever hybrid model, the ES300h, with a gas/electric powertrain borrowed from -- what else -- the Camry. The 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine, 2 electric motor/generators, and a continuously variable transmission receive only minor calibration tweaks in the move from Toyota to Lexus. Peak output is the same 200 hp as the Camry Hybrid, and the fuel economy rating is 40/39 mpg (city/highway). An EV mode allows feather-footed drivers to reach speeds of up to 25 mph for short distances without using the gas engine.

The hybrid's acceleration and brake feel bear only the faintest resemblance to what you experience in the V-6 car. Still, the ES hybrid is a far more pleasant fuel miser than the unsuccessful and unloved HS250h. That short-lived model has been killed off in light of the ES300h's significantly better fuel economy, larger cabin, and similar price. Exact pricing hasn't been announced, but Lexus says the ES300h will have the brand's smallest hybrid cost premium ever. We predict a starting figure right around $40,000. While the ES aesthetic has been rebooted with the 2013 model, the driving experience hasn't changed substantially. This is still the comfortable, nicely appointed, affordable luxury car it has always been. The ES's humble roots leave little room for massaging the car into a performer to match the brand's aspirations. We have no doubt that the ES will continue to contribute generously to Lexus's bottom line; its contribution to recreating the brand image, however, will be minimal.

2013 Lexus ES350
On sale: August 2012
Base price: $38,000 (est.)
Engine: 3.5L V-6, 268 hp, 248 lb-ft
Transmission: 6-speed automatic
Drive: Front-wheel
EPA mileage: 21/31 mpg

2013 Lexus ES300h
On sale: August 2012
Base price: $40,000 (est.)
Engine: 2.5L I-4 gas/electric hybrid, 200 hp (net)
Transmission: Continuously variable
Drive: Front-wheel
EPA mileage: 40/39 mpg

Old 06-01-12, 08:17 AM
  #877  
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Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
interior looks cheaply made? Have you seen the current ES interior?
Probaly severe years ago. I guess I see it so plainly in this car. For example look at the picture that shows the eco/push normal/sport button. I see the same thing in the C class MB to be fair.
Oh well regardless I love the exterior.
Old 06-01-12, 08:26 AM
  #878  
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I think it is utterly ridiculous how many times I've read "camry" in every ****ing review. I don't recall the media saying Accord that many times to describe TL or "Golf" that many times to describe an A3 etc. It doesn't matter if Lexus tries extra hard separate the Camry from ES if the ****ing writers simply start every damn article bringing up Camry.

I'm looking at this car inside and out and looking at the tech it offers and you have to really overeach to relate it to the Camry.

No wonder proportions look great. It gains the Avalon longer Wheelbase but only grew an inch. Weight also was kept down. I find the previous 2 ES vehicles to have huge backseats so I can't imagine how big this new one is.

Lexus is going to sell every damn one of these they can sell. IMO this was no evolutionary change at all, it is quite revolutionary for the ES.

As for the controls, I think it is confusing and its going to confuse some traditional ES buyers. Hell I can't figure **** out in the GS Some of it is utterly ridiculous. No wonder Lexus had to create that new technology position at dealers to help owners. I used to love the simplicity of getting in a Lexus and driving off and looking at the interior. Now they seem cold/German and I need Stephen Hawkings in the car to figure it out.

And really that much *****ing about a power trunk and wheel gap? What car brand doesn't have their best press photos with lowered cars? We still even mentioning this in 2012? Egads. I do think if we are going to bish at something, it should be Lexus REFUSES to offer fold down rear seats to help with cargo. This is really ridiculous at this point and it is a selling point to me.

Overall I never thought I could see myself in a FWD ES again but the hybrid getting 40MPG sounds like a wonderful car to drive around daily.

Last edited by LexFather; 06-01-12 at 08:32 AM.
Old 06-01-12, 10:11 AM
  #879  
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^^^

Surely one of your best rants.
Old 06-01-12, 11:30 AM
  #880  
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Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT
^^^

Surely one of your best rants.
Thanks I'm trying to be a more fair and focused ranter
Old 06-01-12, 11:57 AM
  #881  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I think it is utterly ridiculous how many times I've read "camry" in every ****ing review.
glass half empty? actually most of the reviews have said how it's moving away from the camry and of course, lots of references to using the avalon platform now.

I need Stephen Hawkings in the car to figure it out.
ROFL

Overall I never thought I could see myself in a FWD ES again but the hybrid getting 40MPG sounds like a wonderful car to drive around daily.
yeah, it's a nice vehicle to be in when stuck in atlanta traffic!
Old 06-01-12, 12:42 PM
  #882  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I think it is utterly ridiculous how many times I've read "camry" in every ****ing review. I don't recall the media saying Accord that many times to describe TL or "Golf" that many times to describe an A3 etc. It doesn't matter if Lexus tries extra hard separate the Camry from ES if the ****ing writers simply start every damn article bringing up Camry.
Excellent point! Quite annoying, their bias shows here. Some friends who only have casual automotive interest, they are all aware the ES is based on the Camry (actually was is more like it, since it's closer to the Avalon now than the Camry) but seem shocked when I tell them the A3 is a guzzied up Golf.

I do think if we are going to bish at something, it should be Lexus REFUSES to offer fold down rear seats to help with cargo. This is really ridiculous at this point and it is a selling point to me.
Very true. I was considering replacing my second car last year with a bigger comfy used awd sedan and had to scratch the RL and TL off the list because I definitely wanted a fold down backseat for those occasional Home Depot and IKEA runs. Almost bought an S4 actually, because it had all my "must haves" including fold down rear.
Old 06-01-12, 03:16 PM
  #883  
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Paul my cup is overflowing. That said I know what I read and since I write I know what the hell they are trying to do here. Then they write an article "Lexus needs to move away from Toyota" but when they do all the writers do is mention "Toyota". Its ridiculous at this point. We get it after 20+ years, Lexus is from Toyota, egads. Its not some new revelation for crying out loud. You rarely ever see Nissan Fuga mentioned with Infiniti M or Mercedes ML used Jeep Cherokee platform.

While I think the Acura ILX is a complete turd it was the same in reviews for them. Every single review must have mentioned Civic 500 times. Well good luck trying to sway public perception its not a gussied up Civic when every review mentions it over and over.

I'm not 15 years old anymore taking these mags as gospel. More and more I can barely stomach reading them even articles where Lexus does well. Since I do my version of reviews I would expect magazines/blogs with circulation in the millions to have a higher standard but instead its like simpleton writing for simpletons.


Originally Posted by IceIridium
Excellent point! Quite annoying, their bias shows here. Some friends who only have casual automotive interest, they are all aware the ES is based on the Camry (actually was is more like it, since it's closer to the Avalon now than the Camry) but seem shocked when I tell them the A3 is a guzzied up Golf..
Thanks. When the A6 shared platforms with the Passat I don't recall it mentioned every 30 seconds in reviews either. They don't mention hardly the E-class coupe is really a C-class chassis etc etc. But when Lexus debuts the ES or RX you better believe the writer will mention 100 times how its a Camry cousin.


Very true. I was considering replacing my second car last year with a bigger comfy used awd sedan and had to scratch the RL and TL off the list because I definitely wanted a fold down backseat for those occasional Home Depot and IKEA runs. Almost bought an S4 actually, because it had all my "must haves" including fold down rear.[/QUOTE]

Yeah its getting to be annoying for those that crave more utility. The Maxima has a fold down rear seat but if you want the SE, you get a rear STB and no more folding rear seat. The new GS has a huge trunk with a great shape but no drop down.

Crap


Originally Posted by IceIridium
Very true. I was considering replacing my second car last year with a bigger comfy used awd sedan and had to scratch the RL and TL off the list because I definitely wanted a fold down backseat for those occasional Home Depot and IKEA runs. Almost bought an S4 actually, because it had all my "must haves" including fold down rear.

Last edited by LexFather; 06-01-12 at 03:22 PM.
Old 06-01-12, 03:46 PM
  #884  
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Originally Posted by rogers2
Probaly severe years ago. I guess I see it so plainly in this car. For example look at the picture that shows the eco/push normal/sport button. I see the same thing in the C class MB to be fair.
Oh well regardless I love the exterior.
what exactly is wrong there? looks perfectly fine. Leather grained plastics and special piece for the controls.

p.s. anyone notice how the reviews are quoting wrong 2011 ES350 MPG? it is 19/27/22 mpg.... new is 21/31/24... much improved. They really optimized the GR.
Old 06-01-12, 03:49 PM
  #885  
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
glass half empty? actually most of the reviews have said how it's moving away from the camry and of course, lots of references to using the avalon platform now.
well... considering that ES outsells Avalon probably 4x1 worldwide, whose platform is it? :P

in any case, they need to start offering ES300h in Europe... we would eat it up.


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