2010 es
08-08-09, 07:07 PM
#76
Lexus Champion
If I'm not mistaken, the soon to be dropped Pontiac Division has sold more cars YTD than Buick and Cadillac combined. They must be keeping Buick primarily because of the Chinese market.
08-08-09, 07:45 PM
#77
Pole Position
Most of the Pontiac line is redundant anyways with the exception of the G8 (one could also argue that for Buick too though & perhaps other one or more other GM divisions that were spared....cough GMC....cough) and that's too bad for a possible new Caprice that will not be produced for the N/A market....as it's an excellent platform. GM is trying to appeal to a global customer base....which is fine, but I still don't think they did not cut enough brands from the N/A market personally.....time will tell & I do wish them well as a former GM guy.
08-09-09, 12:07 AM
#79
That's debatable.....the IS did not arrive to the Lexus N/A lineup until 2001....so the ES took the entry level spot since 1990......it's hard to call the IS line the 'entry level' line considering the IS-F & some models in between (IE: AWD, now a convertible model etc)...no ES-F, nor an AWD model...yet....& I doubt ever a convertible. 
One needs to consider the mission of the model to begin with & the target market Lexus is trying to reach....it's not necessarily always it's 'starting' price point.
I was referring to passenger cars too btw.....not crossovers or SUV's.
Buick may consider the ES a direct competitor for the LaCrosse (Allure in Canada).....but I have yet to read a Lexus ad or hear a Lexus commercial ever mentioning Buick period. That is why Toyota has the Avalon.....and especially recently since GM's bankruptcy. Lexus has it's image to think about....GM is just simply trying not to sink into the Abyss.
One needs to consider the mission of the model to begin with & the target market Lexus is trying to reach....it's not necessarily always it's 'starting' price point.
I was referring to passenger cars too btw.....not crossovers or SUV's.
Buick may consider the ES a direct competitor for the LaCrosse (Allure in Canada).....but I have yet to read a Lexus ad or hear a Lexus commercial ever mentioning Buick period. That is why Toyota has the Avalon.....and especially recently since GM's bankruptcy. Lexus has it's image to think about....GM is just simply trying not to sink into the Abyss.
Well it might be debatable to some, but looking at the matrix of automobiles Lexus currently promotes on it's website along with a few of the direct statements from company executives in various online automotive journals, Lexus themselves seem to think that the IS series is slotted below the ES as the entry level model. Also, my assessment of the IS designation is based on standard features, not cost alone. Remember the base IS250 version is the only car from Lexus that offers the 2.5L 6-cylinder engine and manual transmission.
And even if the IS has other model editions, this theory holds no merit in regards to how the IS is categorized as the higher tiered car above the ES. If Lexus has the IS series in 8 different variations and the GS series is available in 4 different versions, does that mean that the IS is ranked above the GS as the top luxury sport sedan? Logically that makes no sense!
And just as a FYI, a "flagship" vehicle is the most prestigious automobile in the line-up of an auto marque regardless of type of vehicle. This is what make the Enclave the obvious "flagship" in Buick's brand. Furthermore it is just not Buick's own opinion that the LaCrosse is a contender to Lexus ES350. Some automobile journalists have already stated specifically in their testing that the LaCrosse is just as good or slightly better than the ES350.
Of course reputation and image mean a great deal. 99.9% of the pundits that rave over the LaCrosse aren't the ones who will spend their hard earned money to buy one. In the end the consumer will ultimately decide which cars are the leaders in their perspective classes.
http://www.lexus.com/models/allModels/#
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-vehicles.html
http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...307139968Lexus
Last edited by bjjones; 08-09-09 at 12:53 AM.
08-09-09, 12:53 AM
#80
I'm not feeling the grill either. I like the subdued look better. In fact I'm not feeling the front end at all, current gen looks much better. Wheels are ok, I still prefer the 10 spoke graphite finish w/o the gaps. Lower chrome on doors and turn signal on outside mirrors is a positive. Taillights are ok, but here again I would choose the current taillight design. Maybe this design is only for the Taiwanese market only? Sorry, guys this one won't do it for me, it's not bad but I would not trade up for this one.
08-09-09, 08:49 AM
#81
Pole Position
Well it might be debatable to some, but looking at the matrix of automobiles Lexus currently promotes on it's website along with a few of the direct statements from company executives in various online automotive journals, Lexus themselves seem to think that the IS series is slotted below the ES as the entry level model. Also, my assessment of the IS designation is based on standard features, not cost alone. Remember the base IS250 version is the only car from Lexus that offers the 2.5L 6-cylinder engine and manual transmission.
And even if the IS has other model editions, this theory holds no merit in regards to how the IS is categorized as the higher tiered car above the ES. If Lexus has the IS series in 8 different variations and the GS series is available in 4 different versions, does that mean that the IS is ranked above the GS as the top luxury sport sedan? Logically that makes no sense!
And just as a FYI, a "flagship" vehicle is the most prestigious automobile in the line-up of an auto marque regardless of type of vehicle. This is what make the Enclave the obvious "flagship" in Buick's brand. Furthermore it is just not Buick's own opinion that the LaCrosse is a contender to Lexus ES350. Some automobile journalists have already stated specifically in their testing that the LaCrosse is just as good or slightly better than the ES350.
Of course reputation and image mean a great deal. 99.9% of the pundits that rave over the LaCrosse aren't the ones who will spend their hard earned money to buy one. In the end the consumer will ultimately decide which cars are the leaders in their perspective classes.
http://www.lexus.com/models/allModels/#
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-vehicles.html
http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...307139968Lexus
And even if the IS has other model editions, this theory holds no merit in regards to how the IS is categorized as the higher tiered car above the ES. If Lexus has the IS series in 8 different variations and the GS series is available in 4 different versions, does that mean that the IS is ranked above the GS as the top luxury sport sedan? Logically that makes no sense!
And just as a FYI, a "flagship" vehicle is the most prestigious automobile in the line-up of an auto marque regardless of type of vehicle. This is what make the Enclave the obvious "flagship" in Buick's brand. Furthermore it is just not Buick's own opinion that the LaCrosse is a contender to Lexus ES350. Some automobile journalists have already stated specifically in their testing that the LaCrosse is just as good or slightly better than the ES350.
Of course reputation and image mean a great deal. 99.9% of the pundits that rave over the LaCrosse aren't the ones who will spend their hard earned money to buy one. In the end the consumer will ultimately decide which cars are the leaders in their perspective classes.
http://www.lexus.com/models/allModels/#
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-vehicles.html
http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...307139968Lexus
I would suggest you read the book 'The Lexus Story'. Again...it is very debatable. We are talking about a car built on the Camry platform that is FWD (and the Lexus volume & 'bread & butter' seller).....vs the IS which is RWD and build off it's own platform (IE Sport sedan aimed directly at the German's)....it's a no brainer. If it will make you feel better, let's open a poll thread on the subject & see what the majority of the members say? Put the debate to bed once & for all
What do you say? As for the base IS 250 with the 6 speed manual with only the standard equipment....what percentage of that model are actually purchased overall compared to the rest of the IS line? My guess is that % is extremely low & it would be hard to find as dealer maybe will have only 1 on their lot out of say 15 or 20.
The pundits & journalists can talk about whatever they want & what car competes with what......that does not make it fact...Buick's problem (and GM's in general) is they are always late to the party that nobody invited them to.....and they find themselves banging on the door screaming let me in.
And they usually are dead last in the comparo tests anyways....even Hyundai beats em. The previous 05 - 09 LaCrosse was an embarrassing (including the 'Super' model) example of a product that many said goes head to head with the ES....the pundits, journalists & GM folk were in the weeds on that one.....bigtime as it didn't even deserve to go against the Avalon (a vehicle built of the previous 02 - 06 generation & modified Camry platform, not the current one!) but instead the Camry XLE V6. Let's not forget the LaCrosse was built off of GM's W platform (a massaged one granted but nevertheless still dated back to the 90's).
As for the pundits....try getting an "I screwed up" out of them & admit they were dead wrong & to back that up...let's just see how many LaCrosses were sold compared to the ES....and how many ligitimate customers actually left a Lexus showroom looking at the ES & bought the LaCrosse instead? Nuff said.
I look forward to a real comparo between the 2010 LaCrosse & 2010 ES 350.....it will be interesting.
One big mistake I see already with the new LaCrosse.....they are only offering the AWD model (one that will prove to be very popular in the snow regions so alot of sales are on the line) with the smaller 3.0L V6.....that's just silly because of lack of additional torque for the heavier model....give the customer at least the choice of the 2 engines & let the market decide you can always adjust that in the future based on sales....Cadillac offers it's CTS AWD model with the more powerful DI 3.6L engine....what's Buick's excuse? That's not a good way to 'hit the ground running' with a brand new model. If the Enclave is Buick's Flagship....I wish them good luck....they are going to need it considering there are 3 more models in the other GM divisions (well soon to be 2 with Saturn being sold) that are built right on the same platform with only slightly different sheetmetal & features. Badge engineering over that many lines is also part of the reason GM declaired bankruptcy. GM is simply not learning anything from their previous mistakes with it's constant redundancy dating back decades.
At least their Cadillac division seems to have their act together...to some degree anyways and that's encouraging.
Last edited by Lexusfreak; 08-09-09 at 11:07 AM.
08-09-09, 12:38 PM
#83
Lexus Champion
And hitting the ground running they are apparently... 
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wil...ring-problems/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wil...ring-problems/
08-09-09, 02:02 PM
#84
I would suggest you read the book 'The Lexus Story'. Again...it is very debatable. We are talking about a car built on the Camry platform that is FWD (and the Lexus volume & 'bread & butter' seller).....vs the IS which is RWD and build off it's own platform (IE Sport sedan aimed directly at the German's)....it's a no brainer. If it will make you feel better, let's open a poll thread on the subject & see what the majority of the members say? Put the debate to bed once & for all What do you say?
As for the base IS 250 with the 6 speed manual with only the standard equipment....what percentage of that model are actually purchased overall compared to the rest of the IS line? My guess is that % is extremely low & it would be hard to find as dealer maybe will have only 1 on their lot out of say 15 or 20.
The pundits & journalists can talk about whatever they want & what car competes with what......that does not make it fact...Buick's problem (and GM's in general) is they are always late to the party that nobody invited them to.....and they find themselves banging on the door screaming let me in. And they usually are dead last in the comparo tests anyways....even Hyundai beats em.
The previous 05 - 09 LaCrosse was an embarrassing (including the 'Super' model) example of a product that many said goes head to head with the ES....the pundits, journalists & GM folk were in the weeds on that one.....bigtime as it didn't even deserve to go against the Avalon (a vehicle built of the previous 02 - 06 generation & modified Camry platform, not the current one!) but instead the Camry XLE V6. Let's not forget the LaCrosse was built off of GM's W platform (a massaged one granted but nevertheless still dated back to the 90's).
As for the pundits....try getting an "I screwed up" out of them & admit they were dead wrong & to back that up...let's just see how many LaCrosses were sold compared to the ES....and how many ligitimate customers actually left a Lexus showroom looking at the ES & bought the LaCrosse instead? Nuff said.
I look forward to a real comparo between the 2010 LaCrosse & 2010 ES 350.....it will be interesting. One big mistake I see already with the new LaCrosse.....they are only offering the AWD model (one that will prove to be very popular in the snow regions so alot of sales are on the line) with the smaller 3.0L V6.....that's just silly because of lack of additional torque for the heavier model....give the customer at least the choice of the 2 engines & let the market decide you can always adjust that in the future based on sales....Cadillac offers it's CTS AWD model with the more powerful DI 3.6L engine....what's Buick's excuse? That's not a good way to 'hit the ground running' with a brand new model.
If the Enclave is Buick's Flagship....I wish them good luck....they are going to need it considering there are 3 more models in the other GM divisions (well soon to be 2 with Saturn being sold) that are built right on the same platform with only slightly different sheetmetal & features. Badge engineering over that many lines is also part of the reason GM declaired bankruptcy. GM is simply not learning anything from their previous mistakes with it's constant redundancy dating back decades.
At least their Cadillac division seems to have their act together...to some degree anyways and that's encouraging.
What do you say? As for the base IS 250 with the 6 speed manual with only the standard equipment....what percentage of that model are actually purchased overall compared to the rest of the IS line? My guess is that % is extremely low & it would be hard to find as dealer maybe will have only 1 on their lot out of say 15 or 20.
The pundits & journalists can talk about whatever they want & what car competes with what......that does not make it fact...Buick's problem (and GM's in general) is they are always late to the party that nobody invited them to.....and they find themselves banging on the door screaming let me in.
And they usually are dead last in the comparo tests anyways....even Hyundai beats em. The previous 05 - 09 LaCrosse was an embarrassing (including the 'Super' model) example of a product that many said goes head to head with the ES....the pundits, journalists & GM folk were in the weeds on that one.....bigtime as it didn't even deserve to go against the Avalon (a vehicle built of the previous 02 - 06 generation & modified Camry platform, not the current one!) but instead the Camry XLE V6. Let's not forget the LaCrosse was built off of GM's W platform (a massaged one granted but nevertheless still dated back to the 90's).
As for the pundits....try getting an "I screwed up" out of them & admit they were dead wrong & to back that up...let's just see how many LaCrosses were sold compared to the ES....and how many ligitimate customers actually left a Lexus showroom looking at the ES & bought the LaCrosse instead? Nuff said.
I look forward to a real comparo between the 2010 LaCrosse & 2010 ES 350.....it will be interesting.
One big mistake I see already with the new LaCrosse.....they are only offering the AWD model (one that will prove to be very popular in the snow regions so alot of sales are on the line) with the smaller 3.0L V6.....that's just silly because of lack of additional torque for the heavier model....give the customer at least the choice of the 2 engines & let the market decide you can always adjust that in the future based on sales....Cadillac offers it's CTS AWD model with the more powerful DI 3.6L engine....what's Buick's excuse? That's not a good way to 'hit the ground running' with a brand new model. If the Enclave is Buick's Flagship....I wish them good luck....they are going to need it considering there are 3 more models in the other GM divisions (well soon to be 2 with Saturn being sold) that are built right on the same platform with only slightly different sheetmetal & features. Badge engineering over that many lines is also part of the reason GM declaired bankruptcy. GM is simply not learning anything from their previous mistakes with it's constant redundancy dating back decades.
At least their Cadillac division seems to have their act together...to some degree anyways and that's encouraging.
GM issues are plentiful, but one main problem was that too many cars shared the same platforms. Looking at Buick's upcoming lineup, most of the cars will be re-badged Opel's so the new GM still hasn't figured it out yet. When they reorganized GM they didn't fire the people that were making bonehead decisions about product placement and marketing strategy. Unfortunately, these same individuals are still in charge and running GM now, so unless some major changes aren't made in the near future, then it will be an epic failure for the company. But, some kudos must be given to GM likewise. And the Buick division is doing just as well as Cadillac in some regards. Based on 2009 JD Reports Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) Buick ranks first and is ahead of Lexus (please refrain from offering any polling to disprove this data)
Hopefully GM can improve their cars in other areas to make them comparable overall to other quality brands.
08-09-09, 02:11 PM
#85
Might be the area your located in. There is one LaCrosse CXL sitting in front of my local Buick dealer and 7 other LaCrosse's at 2 dealerships within a 30 miles radius. However, I couldn't say if the LaCrosse is available for sale or not based on the information you provided in your link.
Last edited by bjjones; 08-09-09 at 02:28 PM.
08-09-09, 03:05 PM
#86
Lexus Champion
Might be the area your located in. There is one LaCrosse CXL sitting in front of my local Buick dealer and 7 other LaCrosse's at 2 dealerships within a 30 miles radius. However, I couldn't say if the LaCrosse is available for sale or not based on the information you provided in your link.
08-09-09, 04:28 PM
#88
Pole Position
I have already sited numerous examples in my previous post in regards to the IS series unequivocally being the entry level model in the Lexus lineup. So even if you provide a poll to the board members and the majority give their opinion agreeing with your hypothesis, this still won't validate or make your statements truth. Whether or not you choose to believe the factual information furnished, that's your decision.
GM issues are plentiful, but one main problem was that too many cars shared the same platforms. Looking at Buick's upcoming lineup, most of the cars will be re-badged Opel's so the new GM still hasn't figured it out yet. When they reorganized GM they didn't fire the people that were making bonehead decisions about product placement and marketing strategy. Unfortunately, these same individuals are still in charge and running GM now, so unless some major changes aren't made in the near future, then it will be an epic failure for the company. But, some kudos must be given to GM likewise. And the Buick division is doing just as well as Cadillac in some regards. Based on 2009 JD Reports Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) Buick ranks first and is ahead of Lexus (please refrain from offering any polling to disprove this data) Hopefully GM can improve their cars in other areas to make them comparable overall to other quality brands.
GM issues are plentiful, but one main problem was that too many cars shared the same platforms. Looking at Buick's upcoming lineup, most of the cars will be re-badged Opel's so the new GM still hasn't figured it out yet. When they reorganized GM they didn't fire the people that were making bonehead decisions about product placement and marketing strategy. Unfortunately, these same individuals are still in charge and running GM now, so unless some major changes aren't made in the near future, then it will be an epic failure for the company. But, some kudos must be given to GM likewise. And the Buick division is doing just as well as Cadillac in some regards. Based on 2009 JD Reports Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) Buick ranks first and is ahead of Lexus (please refrain from offering any polling to disprove this data)
Hopefully GM can improve their cars in other areas to make them comparable overall to other quality brands. I too have given many examples that the ES is the entry level Lexus model without question. I think enough time has been spent on the matter so nuff said. Now back on topic...
Last edited by Lexusfreak; 08-09-09 at 04:31 PM.
08-09-09, 05:27 PM
#89
Moderator
Thanks Mister Two for posting pictures of the 2010 ES. Still digesting the new subtle looks.
The ES, IS and now HS are all entry level models.
The ES is a conservative, luxurious and affordable FWD entry level model very similar to the Infiniti I35 which has been discontinued.
The IS is a sporty entry RWD level model very similar to the BMW 3 Series which is built on a shortened version of the GS platform. The IS F is entry level performance very similar to the M3. The next level up is the M5 and soon we will get the GS F.
The new and upcoming HS 250h is an affordable entry level hybrid with no petrol version.
The ES, IS and now HS are all entry level models.
The ES is a conservative, luxurious and affordable FWD entry level model very similar to the Infiniti I35 which has been discontinued.
The IS is a sporty entry RWD level model very similar to the BMW 3 Series which is built on a shortened version of the GS platform. The IS F is entry level performance very similar to the M3. The next level up is the M5 and soon we will get the GS F.
The new and upcoming HS 250h is an affordable entry level hybrid with no petrol version.
08-09-09, 05:27 PM
#90
I can agree however that this subject has been over discussed and drawn out to the point of being tiresome. But there is nothing wrong with a good debate every now and then.