piclistguy

Many have noted the incredible highway mileage for the ES 350.
Does anyone know the technology and refinments that set this engine apart from others in this class. Even the VQ V6 from Nissan doesnt achieve this type of economy. I am sure the excellent aeodynamics of the ES and a tall 6th gear make a difference.
I can only imagine an improved version of V6 from Toyota, which should be out in a year or two. Perhaps electromechanically actuated valves.

superchan7

6th gear @ 80mph is only 2200-2300 rpm, and I can average just over 30 mpg. That's pretty good compared to my previous car, a 2001 VW Passat V6 (2.8L), which gets about 28 mpg highway and is 3000+ rpm @ 80 mph (it's 5-AT).

codex57

The Camry gets similar gas mileage. IT's a combo of the refined engine and the 6 speed tranny. Most others only have a 5 speed at most.

While many would assume the tranny gets the bulk of the credit, don't discount the refinement of the engine. Yes, others have fine engines too (like the VQ, but they went for power over gas mileage). You typically have to pick either power or gas mileage. Don't get both. The 3.5L doesn't make the same power as the Nissan engine, while the DI version of Toyota's 3.5L does make big power but dips a bit in gas mileage.

However, not everyone can make a good engine. The easiest and most glaring example I can think of are the Koreans. Look at Hyundai's engines. If you've ever driven one, you'll know what I'm talking about. They're fine engines. Very similar to a lot of US designed engines. However, they're utter crap compared to the top engines on the market. While they're good overall, in some areas, they're only as good as what companies like Toyota, Honda, or BMW were able to produce 30 years ago. Just start comparing city mileage across the most popular cars and then see what city mileage is on a Korean car. It's pretty funny. Especially when you know that a car manufacturer's marketing exec would sell his daughter's virtue for a 1 mpg advantage.

oldcajun

I did just what you suggested, and compared the 2008 Accord, Camry, and Hyundai Sonata for gas mileage on the government site. I'm not sure where you got your info on Korean gas mileage, but the EPA ratings for both city and highway mileage are virtually identical. This is true for both 4 and V6 versions. The Sonata is even classed as a "large" car by EPA where the Camry is a "midsize". The Koreans don't look like they're 30 years behind to me. They may not yet be at the top, but they have closed the gap a lot in the last 4 years.
Steve

Scottward

Estimated and actual mileage are two different things. There are numerous ES350 owners, including me, getting 31+ mpg highway even while cruising at 80 mph over mixed grades.

LexFather

1. Good gearing for hwy speeds.
2. Low CD of drag
3. The 3.5 is an award winning engine, one of the best V-6s ever made, combining near class leading power AND MPG.

I had an ES loaner the other day and was amazed to see 28 MPG and I punched the gas a few times. Amazing.

oldcajun

Just for perspective, I own a 2008 ES350 and also get 30+ mpg on the highway. My point above was really that Hyundai has made a lot of progress and are no longer laggards in the mpg race.

My other car is a G35 coupe and it never has gotten as good mpg numbers as the ES350. I attribute that to gearing (3000 rpm @ 80 mph) and the ECU set for richer mixture for performance. The ES engine has a lot less power, but much better mileage on cars that weigh near the same and have the same displacement.
Steve

Scottward

3000 RPM at 80? Infinity engineers should be fired for that idiodicy with a 5 AT. Hopefully they can manage to get at least 2400 rpm at 80 mph with their new 7 speed a/t coming out.

oldcajun

It was a decision Infiniti made to focus on performance rather than mileage or quiet cruising. You wouldn't shoot any engineers if you felt the acceleration of the car, particularly at passing speeds.

Based on the results with the FX, the 7 speed auto will be worth a couple of mpg highway, but they are still pushing performance. We will know next month when the G37's with the 7 speed are available. I'm guessing that the G37 sedan will do 0-60 in 5 seconds flat or even a little less. It still won't get 30 mpg on the highway though.
Steve

Scottward

I doubt the 5 seconds flat because the current G37 with 6 speed is a lot higher than that 0-60 and they are barely running 13.9s in the 1/4 mile. Apparantly the new 3.7 L is still lacking some much needed low-end torque. Where-as many IS350s have been doing 4.8 0-60s and 13.4-13.5 1/4 miles for the past 3 years due primarily to its better torque curve and some due to the better 6 speed auto gearing.

Remember the old saying, "horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races!"

John_B

Our ES350 only has about 150 miles so I cannot comment on fuel mileage, however I agree that the three items list above are what makes the difference.

If you look at the ES350 Roll Call you will see photos of my current three cars (posted today). Discounting the ES350 (because we have not had it long enough) our best fuel mileage car is the C6 Corvette. On a 2500 mile trip last fall we averaged 28.5 MPG and on one stretch through the mountains of eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina we did 30 MPG while cruising at 75 MPH. I attribute that to the three items listed above with item 3 modified to read 6.0L LS2 V8 engine and the six speed paddle shift transmission.

Good gearing, low drag and good engine management can do wonders for fuel mileage.

John

codex57

True about the Camry/Sonata. I was thinking of my sister's Tiburon and uncle's Elantra when I made that statement. Altho I was just given a 2008 Sonata a few days ago when my truck was in the shop. No way in HELL is the Sonata a "large" car while the two Japanese ones are just midsize. Initially, the Enterprise agent and I weren't sure it was the "standard" sized car I was supposed to get. Honda and Toyota are clearly under no threat from the Sonata. Hell, GM and Ford are under no threat either. Gas mileage in real life in that car is most definitely much worse than the EPA sticker. Prolly cuz the engine is gutless so you need more gas just to keep up with traffic. Which also goes into why I think the Koreans are much behind in engine development. Maybe they got matching EPA amounts on that model, but it's clearly underpowered and much more rough sounding compared to the leading Japanese.

Anyways, the Corolla gets 28/37. The Accent, a MUCH smaller car, gets 24/33. Elantra gets 25/33. Tiburon gets 20/28. Those Korean models should be getting better mileage than that. The Civic only gets 25/36, which is a little bad on the city compared to the Corolla, but it feels a ton more powerful and refined and the freeway is a good bit better than the Koreans. If I'm going to get lower gas mileage, I'd like them to offset it with more power. However, because the Koreans feel weak and VERY rough (the Sonata was pretty funny in its sound/feel despite only having about 5,000 miles on it), also having worse gas mileage makes me feel as if they're way behind. I think it's the feel more than anything else. Power can be tweaked in little ways like throttle sensitivity (Toyota tends to employ this trick to make the Corolla feel stronger than it is), engine mapping, gearing, etc. However, a rough engine is a rough engine. The Tiburon is the worse by far (truck engine in a sports car, whaddaya expect?), but the others shouldn't be that bad either.

I prolly have high standards, but only cuz I'm comparing a model to the class leader. However, I don't see why I shouldn't compare them against the leaders? If you're buying a car, why wouldn't you compare one model against the best? That's how I ended up buying my cars. I may not be unique, but if I'm shelling out the cash, why not buy the best if you don't need to save that extra $1,000.

After driving that Sonata a few days ago, it only confirmed to me that the Korean cars are meant to be disposable.

codex57

Interesting. I have two friends with G35 coupes. Gas mileage is one of their only two complaints (interior/storage room being the other).

toneman

And this proves what about Hyundai vehicles--that the actual fuel economy of their vehicles are indeed crappy? Who's to say that someone can't get better than estimated fuel economy out of a Hyundai?

LOL--funny how some folks (not you) have to resort to over-exaggerating in order to make/prove a point. 30 years behind???? Puhleeze...

Notwithstanding anything else positive and/or negative about Hyundai vehicles--if you're gonna bash Hyundai because of their relatively underwhelming fuel economy (when compared to the Corolla), then it should be fair to argue as to why (the following compares the 2008 base model for each vehicle):

1) Toyota Matrix--which (IIRC) has the same base engine as that in the Corolla and is roughly the same size--gets only 26/33?

2) Toyota Yaris--a smaller car than the Corolla both in size, weight, and engine size (1.5L vs. 1.8L)--gets only 29/36? Shouldn't it get slightly better fuel economy than that? Yes I realize there can be other factors that could affect fuel economy other than engine size but if you're gonna argue as to why a car such as the Accent can't get better fuel economy, then it's only fair to ask the same of the Yaris since it is pretty much the same size as that of the Accent.

Also--I dunno where you got that 24/33 figure for the Accent; Edmunds lists the 2008 model as getting 27/32 (BTW it also lists the Corolla as being 28/37, so I would think the numbers they gave for the Accent are just as accurate).

Yes I agree Hyundai should be getting better fuel economy out of their econobox models...but IMHO we should cut them a bit of slack. After all, look how long they've been producing automobiles for the masses...then compare that to how long Toyota's been doing the same.

No doubt, Hyundai is not (yet) in the same league as Toyota...but they've come a long way since the Excel--not even you can disagree with that assessment. I just don't understand the (subtle) Hyundai-bashing going on here; like I said, Hyundai isn't in the same class as Toyota...so why should one expect it to be just as good as Toyota, then subsequently criticize it (their vehicles) because it doesn't match up to Toyota's offerings?

codex57

Dunno. I got my numbers from Edmunds. Clicked on specs. Those are the numbers I got from them. I'm only "picking" on Hyundai cuz I first noticed how bad the gas mileage was on my sis' Tiburon. It struck me after we bought her car that the discount from buying a Korean car is smaller than you'd think due to the worse gas mileage and cheaper quality all around.

Matrix isn't a good example. It's based off the same chassis, yes, but comparing a Matrix to a Corolla is like comparing a RX350 to the ES350. It's not "the same size". That's why I didn't throw in Hyundai SUVs in the comparison. And while the Yaris isn't as good, it's still better than the Koreans.

My point of all of this wasn't necessarily to bash Hyundai only, but to show that some companies (like Toyota) are quite a bit ahead in the engine/gas mileage race. If you want to cut them a bit of slack cuz they haven't been doing this as long, that's fine. But I'm just pointing out that while they've come a long ways, there still not ready to be praised and that despite what looks like a cheaper price, the price advantage may not be anywhere near what it looks like at first.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/hyun...chlanding.html