ES350 steering
07-28-07, 04:07 AM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
ES350 steering
I do not want to start a flame war with anyone but I am very impressed with the steering responsiveness of my ES350.
I had not thought that it would be this good. In fact, I am surprised to find that I seem to have a more tactile sense of control driving the ES than that which I had when I tested the GS450h.
Before I bought my ES, I had read that its steering was representative of all Lexus models; that it was “loose” as compared to the “tight” feel one gets driving say a BMW. Maybe the steering on my particular ES is an aberration, maybe not.
Regardless of the reason, my ES responds to minute fractional movements of the steering wheel making the car handle just the way I like it. I am pleased to find it so.
I had not thought that it would be this good. In fact, I am surprised to find that I seem to have a more tactile sense of control driving the ES than that which I had when I tested the GS450h.
Before I bought my ES, I had read that its steering was representative of all Lexus models; that it was “loose” as compared to the “tight” feel one gets driving say a BMW. Maybe the steering on my particular ES is an aberration, maybe not.
Regardless of the reason, my ES responds to minute fractional movements of the steering wheel making the car handle just the way I like it. I am pleased to find it so.
07-28-07, 06:04 AM
#2
Lead Lap
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The steering is fine but there's no lateral grip (skinny tires) and there's massive body lean through turns. Now it must be said that this body lean is, to a large extent, what allows for the very comfortable supension over road irregularities and potholes.
The only car manufacturer who's really gotten this "right" is M-B and some of the BMW's. Audis are strung way too tight and Volvo's ride like Mack trucks.
The only car manufacturer who's really gotten this "right" is M-B and some of the BMW's. Audis are strung way too tight and Volvo's ride like Mack trucks.
07-28-07, 06:26 AM
#3
I do not want to start a flame war with anyone but I am very impressed with the steering responsiveness of my ES350.
I had not thought that it would be this good. In fact, I am surprised to find that I seem to have a more tactile sense of control driving the ES than that which I had when I tested the GS450h.
Before I bought my ES, I had read that its steering was representative of all Lexus models; that it was “loose” as compared to the “tight” feel one gets driving say a BMW. Maybe the steering on my particular ES is an aberration, maybe not.
Regardless of the reason, my ES responds to minute fractional movements of the steering wheel making the car handle just the way I like it. I am pleased to find it so.
I had not thought that it would be this good. In fact, I am surprised to find that I seem to have a more tactile sense of control driving the ES than that which I had when I tested the GS450h.
Before I bought my ES, I had read that its steering was representative of all Lexus models; that it was “loose” as compared to the “tight” feel one gets driving say a BMW. Maybe the steering on my particular ES is an aberration, maybe not.
Regardless of the reason, my ES responds to minute fractional movements of the steering wheel making the car handle just the way I like it. I am pleased to find it so.
07-28-07, 10:12 AM
#4
Driver
Thread Starter
Gentlemen, I appreciate your comments.
I consider myself fortunate not to have experienced the "massive body lean" or the "poor handling" that you both have commented upon.
My car is quite new and only has 485 miles on it. Most of my driving has been in the city. However, this morning after posting my first comments on this thread, I drove to a friends home 30 miles down a desert highway. The highway had grades, downgrades, both right and left curves as well as flat stretches.
I accelerated from a standing start after having stopped at a red light up to 85mph, reduced to 65mpg and then cruised at 79mph.
The handling on my ES was excellent; no shimming, no rolls. In other words, nothing at all as you have indicated. Again, I do not doubt you.
So far, I have no complaint about the way my ES takes curves or handles at higher speeds on an open stretch of highway.
I consider myself fortunate not to have experienced the "massive body lean" or the "poor handling" that you both have commented upon.
My car is quite new and only has 485 miles on it. Most of my driving has been in the city. However, this morning after posting my first comments on this thread, I drove to a friends home 30 miles down a desert highway. The highway had grades, downgrades, both right and left curves as well as flat stretches.
I accelerated from a standing start after having stopped at a red light up to 85mph, reduced to 65mpg and then cruised at 79mph.
The handling on my ES was excellent; no shimming, no rolls. In other words, nothing at all as you have indicated. Again, I do not doubt you.
So far, I have no complaint about the way my ES takes curves or handles at higher speeds on an open stretch of highway.
07-28-07, 10:41 AM
#5
Gentlemen, I appreciate your comments.
I consider myself fortunate not to have experienced the "massive body lean" or the "poor handling" that you both have commented upon.
My car is quite new and only has 485 miles on it. Most of my driving has been in the city. However, this morning after posting my first comments on this thread, I drove to a friends home 30 miles down a desert highway. The highway had grades, downgrades, both right and left curves as well as flat stretches.
I accelerated from a standing start after having stopped at a red light up to 85mph, reduced to 65mpg and then cruised at 79mph.
The handling on my ES was excellent; no shimming, no rolls. In other words, nothing at all as you have indicated. Again, I do not doubt you.
So far, I have no complaint about the way my ES takes curves or handles at higher speeds on an open stretch of highway.
I consider myself fortunate not to have experienced the "massive body lean" or the "poor handling" that you both have commented upon.
My car is quite new and only has 485 miles on it. Most of my driving has been in the city. However, this morning after posting my first comments on this thread, I drove to a friends home 30 miles down a desert highway. The highway had grades, downgrades, both right and left curves as well as flat stretches.
I accelerated from a standing start after having stopped at a red light up to 85mph, reduced to 65mpg and then cruised at 79mph.
The handling on my ES was excellent; no shimming, no rolls. In other words, nothing at all as you have indicated. Again, I do not doubt you.
So far, I have no complaint about the way my ES takes curves or handles at higher speeds on an open stretch of highway.
Last edited by MD350; 07-28-07 at 10:46 AM.
07-28-07, 06:29 PM
#7
Steering is subjective, but other than finding the steering to be light (which, as I've mentioned in other threads, is a comment as opposed to a criticism) I think it's remarkably accurate and offers plenty of response. Handling - which is related to but different from steering - is exceptional for a heavy FWD car in my opinion.
I do prefer the Germans, although by nature of their setups (particularly caster) they are very sensitive to tire dynamics. My Audi A4 was, by far, the best handling vehicle I've yet owned. I also loved the weight and accuracy of the steering...even though as a result of the aggressive caster settings, turn-in was very quick. That meant I had to pay attention on the freeway as the car was more than willing to wander.
Even more so than any German car I've driven, I imagine the only vehicle than the ES more comfortable on a cross-country drive might be the LS. Obviously that's a compliment to more than just the steering, but the ES just tracks amazingly well.
I do prefer the Germans, although by nature of their setups (particularly caster) they are very sensitive to tire dynamics. My Audi A4 was, by far, the best handling vehicle I've yet owned. I also loved the weight and accuracy of the steering...even though as a result of the aggressive caster settings, turn-in was very quick. That meant I had to pay attention on the freeway as the car was more than willing to wander.
Even more so than any German car I've driven, I imagine the only vehicle than the ES more comfortable on a cross-country drive might be the LS. Obviously that's a compliment to more than just the steering, but the ES just tracks amazingly well.
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07-28-07, 11:23 PM
#8
I have driven mine 'moderately aggressively' - I have had a positive handling experience. I do not want to drive this car like a sports car, that is not what I bought it for. I think the commenter's who are unhappy are pushing the ES past its design capabilities, and maybe they bought the wrong car for what they want/wanted.
07-29-07, 08:24 AM
#9
I have driven mine 'moderately aggressively' - I have had a positive handling experience. I do not want to drive this car like a sports car, that is not what I bought it for. I think the commenter's who are unhappy are pushing the ES past its design capabilities, and maybe they bought the wrong car for what they want/wanted.
Pete
07-29-07, 09:35 AM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
OK, the moment you mentioned ES350 has more control and better steering that GS450h, you lost all of your credibility 
You need to take another test drive, my friend. I owned ES350 for 4 month, and after 2 failed trannies moved to GS350 AWD which is night-and-day in steering and handling. From what you are describing, your driving habits are not aggressive and I betch you never take sharp turn at more than 30 mph. And, if you do take turns without dramatic slowing down, you will feel an extreme body lean of the car. That is characteristic of soft ES/LS ride. As it was mentioned before, for a better handling and more feel of the road you go with IS/GS. In addition, G450h comes with **** option (Active Stabilizer Suspension System) that is more advanced than GS430 and which can give some BMW a run for their money (just my opinion). Of course, nobody beats a tight **** Bimmer steering, not even wonnabe ’07 G35 LOL!!!
Don't get me wrong, ES is a nice car and on a straight forward road its a pocket rocket! It sounds like its a great car for you and your needs, so enjoy it!!! But, your short test drive impression that a car is superior in handling and steering to GS is inaccurate, and this is not just an opinion but a fact. There is a good reason why Lexus markets ES/LS as luxury and IS/GS as luxury-sport
You need to take another test drive, my friend. I owned ES350 for 4 month, and after 2 failed trannies moved to GS350 AWD which is night-and-day in steering and handling. From what you are describing, your driving habits are not aggressive and I betch you never take sharp turn at more than 30 mph. And, if you do take turns without dramatic slowing down, you will feel an extreme body lean of the car. That is characteristic of soft ES/LS ride. As it was mentioned before, for a better handling and more feel of the road you go with IS/GS. In addition, G450h comes with **** option (Active Stabilizer Suspension System) that is more advanced than GS430 and which can give some BMW a run for their money (just my opinion). Of course, nobody beats a tight **** Bimmer steering, not even wonnabe ’07 G35 LOL!!!Don't get me wrong, ES is a nice car and on a straight forward road its a pocket rocket! It sounds like its a great car for you and your needs, so enjoy it!!! But, your short test drive impression that a car is superior in handling and steering to GS is inaccurate, and this is not just an opinion but a fact. There is a good reason why Lexus markets ES/LS as luxury and IS/GS as luxury-sport
07-29-07, 02:34 PM
#11
Steering is subjective, but other than finding the steering to be light (which, as I've mentioned in other threads, is a comment as opposed to a criticism) I think it's remarkably accurate and offers plenty of response. Handling - which is related to but different from steering - is exceptional for a heavy FWD car in my opinion.
I do prefer the Germans, although by nature of their setups (particularly caster) they are very sensitive to tire dynamics. My Audi A4 was, by far, the best handling vehicle I've yet owned. I also loved the weight and accuracy of the steering...even though as a result of the aggressive caster settings, turn-in was very quick. That meant I had to pay attention on the freeway as the car was more than willing to wander.
Even more so than any German car I've driven, I imagine the only vehicle than the ES more comfortable on a cross-country drive might be the LS. Obviously that's a compliment to more than just the steering, but the ES just tracks amazingly well.
I do prefer the Germans, although by nature of their setups (particularly caster) they are very sensitive to tire dynamics. My Audi A4 was, by far, the best handling vehicle I've yet owned. I also loved the weight and accuracy of the steering...even though as a result of the aggressive caster settings, turn-in was very quick. That meant I had to pay attention on the freeway as the car was more than willing to wander.
Even more so than any German car I've driven, I imagine the only vehicle than the ES more comfortable on a cross-country drive might be the LS. Obviously that's a compliment to more than just the steering, but the ES just tracks amazingly well.
The GS was not an option, the interior is smaller in my opinion and I love the large back seat in the ES.
07-29-07, 02:49 PM
#12
Driver
Thread Starter
Twister, I do not intend to cross swords with you about whether the GS has superior handling characteristics to the ES. It is a matter of fact that it does. The GS was designed to be a Lexus performance car, the ES was not.
What I said was not a remark to denigrate the GS but to voice my surprise at how much better the ES handled than I was led to believe. My car at the time of testing both the GS and the ES was a fifteen month old 2006 M45.
IMO, the M is more powerful and is superior to the GS450h except that the GS450h has a faster pickup from a standing start and also renders more mpg than the M45. I also believe my M was vastly superior to the GS350.
None of these cars could match my former Porsche or Quattro with regard to road hugging hanndling. But, a comparison of handling was not the point of my post as I have already stated.
To set the record straight, the ES350 is an entry level luxury automobile produced and marketed specifically for people like me who have either outgrown the need for a visceral sense of the road or who simply want a reliable ride that is comfortable, somewhat luxurious, equipped with high tech electronics and is modestly priced when compared to premium luxury sedans. I bought the ES350 for these reasons and simply wanted others to know that I have been pleasantly surprised by its steering.
Your assumption about me is wrong. One does not have to always drive a fast accelerating, deep growling, curve diving and uncomfortable bone rattling performance car to be a car enthusiast. Some of us have outgrown this phase.
You dismiss my opinion as a lack of experience or to consider I lack credibility. Although I am old I am also a quite experienced owner and driver of many cars. I have probably owned and driven more cars than the majority who post in this forum. Since the 1930’s I have owned thirty-nine cars, trucks and vans. I must add that in my youthful exuberance I drove many of them much, much too fast and did my share of careening around curves recklessly at high speeds.
During my teens, I fashioned a hot rod based on a Ford 1929 roadster. I raced it against other rods owned by guys at my school for pink slips. From that time to the present, I have owned a number of American muscle cars as well as a few hot shots produced in Europe. I have also owned most of America’s “finest” and have spent a small fortune in the process.
I have owned nine German cars (three Audi Quattro’s, three BMW’s, one Mercedes, one Porsche and one VW). I have also owned an MG, Jag and three Volvos.
My stable from Japan has included four Acura and one Infiniti. At present I own a Lexus ES350.
The quality of my cars have ranged from very bad to very good; from poor handling to extremely good handling. I have owned quite cheap automobiles and a few very expensive ones such as my Mercedes 500SEL and BMW 750il 12-cylinder palace.
Twister, I am sorry if my choice of words offended your sensibilities. Your fervor towards your GS is commendable but misplaced with regard to my post. I have enough experience and intelligence to present an opinion about what my impression was when I test drove both a GS and an ES. It was not a criticism of the GS; rather a compliment for the ES.
Enjoy the verve of your GS. I will enjoy the sedate ride of my ES (with its surprisingly good handling).
What I said was not a remark to denigrate the GS but to voice my surprise at how much better the ES handled than I was led to believe. My car at the time of testing both the GS and the ES was a fifteen month old 2006 M45.
IMO, the M is more powerful and is superior to the GS450h except that the GS450h has a faster pickup from a standing start and also renders more mpg than the M45. I also believe my M was vastly superior to the GS350.
None of these cars could match my former Porsche or Quattro with regard to road hugging hanndling. But, a comparison of handling was not the point of my post as I have already stated.
To set the record straight, the ES350 is an entry level luxury automobile produced and marketed specifically for people like me who have either outgrown the need for a visceral sense of the road or who simply want a reliable ride that is comfortable, somewhat luxurious, equipped with high tech electronics and is modestly priced when compared to premium luxury sedans. I bought the ES350 for these reasons and simply wanted others to know that I have been pleasantly surprised by its steering.
Your assumption about me is wrong. One does not have to always drive a fast accelerating, deep growling, curve diving and uncomfortable bone rattling performance car to be a car enthusiast. Some of us have outgrown this phase.
You dismiss my opinion as a lack of experience or to consider I lack credibility. Although I am old I am also a quite experienced owner and driver of many cars. I have probably owned and driven more cars than the majority who post in this forum. Since the 1930’s I have owned thirty-nine cars, trucks and vans. I must add that in my youthful exuberance I drove many of them much, much too fast and did my share of careening around curves recklessly at high speeds.
During my teens, I fashioned a hot rod based on a Ford 1929 roadster. I raced it against other rods owned by guys at my school for pink slips. From that time to the present, I have owned a number of American muscle cars as well as a few hot shots produced in Europe. I have also owned most of America’s “finest” and have spent a small fortune in the process.
I have owned nine German cars (three Audi Quattro’s, three BMW’s, one Mercedes, one Porsche and one VW). I have also owned an MG, Jag and three Volvos.
My stable from Japan has included four Acura and one Infiniti. At present I own a Lexus ES350.
The quality of my cars have ranged from very bad to very good; from poor handling to extremely good handling. I have owned quite cheap automobiles and a few very expensive ones such as my Mercedes 500SEL and BMW 750il 12-cylinder palace.
Twister, I am sorry if my choice of words offended your sensibilities. Your fervor towards your GS is commendable but misplaced with regard to my post. I have enough experience and intelligence to present an opinion about what my impression was when I test drove both a GS and an ES. It was not a criticism of the GS; rather a compliment for the ES.
Enjoy the verve of your GS. I will enjoy the sedate ride of my ES (with its surprisingly good handling).
Last edited by carbuff; 07-29-07 at 02:54 PM.
07-29-07, 05:51 PM
#13
Lexus Test Driver
Carbuff, no hard feelings. I used a smiley face () in reference to "credibility". I do appreciate you giving us the background of your car ownership history, very impressive. Being in early 30's myself, I'm sure I will be looking for a softer ride when I'm ready to give my bones a rest
BTW, you might want to re-think "reliable ride" after reading through all the posts in this ES forum. I hope Lexus will get back to reliable with '08 models and will be able to get back to #1 after dropping to #5.
) in reference to "credibility". I do appreciate you giving us the background of your car ownership history, very impressive. Being in early 30's myself, I'm sure I will be looking for a softer ride when I'm ready to give my bones a rest BTW, you might want to re-think "reliable ride" after reading through all the posts in this ES forum. I hope Lexus will get back to reliable with '08 models and will be able to get back to #1 after dropping to #5.
07-29-07, 10:05 PM
#14
Pole Position
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Could be everyone is right, my July build 07/06 ES350 was very firm riding no body lean at all imagine driving down the I-5 freeway over the expansion joints at 70mph and looking at the dash shack, now that’s firm.
My other ES350 Jan 07 build was very soft and yet had good control over the same freeway with no dash vibrations. I had a loaner ES350 05/06 build that felt like it was dragging it’s A** around and bouncing up and down. My wife thought that was fun. So there’s been a lot a variations over the year as to what you get in the way of a good or weird ride. Sure hope the 08’s are settled down as far as ride goes.
My other ES350 Jan 07 build was very soft and yet had good control over the same freeway with no dash vibrations. I had a loaner ES350 05/06 build that felt like it was dragging it’s A** around and bouncing up and down. My wife thought that was fun. So there’s been a lot a variations over the year as to what you get in the way of a good or weird ride. Sure hope the 08’s are settled down as far as ride goes.
Last edited by osokuko; 07-29-07 at 10:33 PM.
07-30-07, 03:38 AM
#15
Driver
Thread Starter
Twister, I am pleased by your comments. Reading them along with viewing some of your other posts, I am impressed that you not only possess formidable knowledge and passion about automobiles but graciously share your experiences with others. I commend you for these admirable qualities and look forward to reading your future views.
I find the great reward participating in forums such as this one is that regardless of one's level of experience, we can all grow richer in knowledge reading the experience of others.
Stay safe, drive well and enjoy your Lexus.
I find the great reward participating in forums such as this one is that regardless of one's level of experience, we can all grow richer in knowledge reading the experience of others.
Stay safe, drive well and enjoy your Lexus.