Unintended Acceleration
06-16-07, 05:16 PM
#31
Lexus Champion
Before my retirement from the work force I was responsible for safety in the work place, and made multiple suggestions to insure that. I have plaques that I received for the betterment in this area.
I mention this because I don't want anybody to feel that I'm unconscious to any or all situations that would cause an unsafe situation.
All I'm asking is for somebody to tell me how a mat could cause unintended acceleration since the top mat is nowhere near the top of the accelerator pedal...fastened or unfastened?
Last edited by amf1932; 06-16-07 at 05:19 PM.
06-16-07, 05:36 PM
#32
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If you take the passenger side all weather mat and place it on top of the standard mat on the drivers side, you can see that it is possible for that mat to be under the brake and on top of the gas.
If you can get from there to unintended accelleration, I don't know. But it just may explain what happened.
Personally I'd prefer that this explains it because it is something that is easy to control. If not, WTF is wrong with the car? If the car is accelerating on it's own due to some computer polterbyte or some unknown mechanical problem, I don't want to be on the same street with it, much less be in it with my family.
If you can get from there to unintended accelleration, I don't know. But it just may explain what happened.
Personally I'd prefer that this explains it because it is something that is easy to control. If not, WTF is wrong with the car? If the car is accelerating on it's own due to some computer polterbyte or some unknown mechanical problem, I don't want to be on the same street with it, much less be in it with my family.
06-16-07, 05:53 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
....And how, pray tell does a mat, either right or left....which is made out of thick, almost unbendable rubber jump up to the top of the accelerator pedal? Go and measure the distances, under the brake pedal and you'll see that there is mucho distance to the mat. I know this as a fact, since I already did this test after receiving the letter from Lexus.
What I think is happening here, is that you're grasping at straws to find a plausible reason to salve your soul. Sorry, I don't buy this explanation.
What I think is happening here, is that you're grasping at straws to find a plausible reason to salve your soul. Sorry, I don't buy this explanation.
06-17-07, 09:16 AM
#34
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Opinion:
The Lexus vehicles, and this applies the entire current model line up, is arguably the best built vehicles in the world. The fail safes built into the system makes them idiot proof, or you would think so. It verges on the realm of impossibility.
It would be nice if the owner's of the remaining 8 cases would take responsibility for their mistake.
Look forward to anyone's comments.[/QUOTE]
You seem to be somewhat familiar with the presumed fault tree for the drive by wire system, however you do not address what I believe is the most probable scenario, that a cruise control failure seems to be the most common thread to these remaining 8 failures. What I believe happend in our case is that a single failure in the cruise control caused it to "think it was turned on" as the primary single failure. Secondarily once turned on, it then saw a "speed deficit" which launched the car. In many of these unexplained NON-floor mat accelerations where the car had nearly attained what it thought the commanded speed was, it often times turned on the speed control light. In my wifes case, start to stop occured in less than two seconds, so she didn't notice whether the cruise control light came on. I am sure at the ECU level the actual speed control is safe with the 4 levels of agreement you suggest, but the cruise control function, if internally falsely activated is a single source failure.
The Lexus vehicles, and this applies the entire current model line up, is arguably the best built vehicles in the world. The fail safes built into the system makes them idiot proof, or you would think so. It verges on the realm of impossibility.
It would be nice if the owner's of the remaining 8 cases would take responsibility for their mistake.
Look forward to anyone's comments.[/QUOTE]
You seem to be somewhat familiar with the presumed fault tree for the drive by wire system, however you do not address what I believe is the most probable scenario, that a cruise control failure seems to be the most common thread to these remaining 8 failures. What I believe happend in our case is that a single failure in the cruise control caused it to "think it was turned on" as the primary single failure. Secondarily once turned on, it then saw a "speed deficit" which launched the car. In many of these unexplained NON-floor mat accelerations where the car had nearly attained what it thought the commanded speed was, it often times turned on the speed control light. In my wifes case, start to stop occured in less than two seconds, so she didn't notice whether the cruise control light came on. I am sure at the ECU level the actual speed control is safe with the 4 levels of agreement you suggest, but the cruise control function, if internally falsely activated is a single source failure.
06-20-07, 09:59 AM
#35
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I've been driving my ES350 for over a year, and it came equipped with the all weather mats on top of the carpeted mats. In all this time the all weather mats never shifted even though they're not held down by the eye hook anchor.
If you look at the back of the OEM All Weather mats you'll see that they have very deep dimples to prevent the mats from shifting, so I have no intentions of removing the carpeted mats, since I like the extra sound absorption that they afford.
If I noticed any shifting, in the least, then, and only then would I remove the carpeted mats!
I think that Lexus sent this notice out just to protect their liability.
I have checked all the manufacturers of aftermarket all weather mats and NONE of them have anchor holes. All they have are some sort of dimples to prevent shifting! I'm sure if they were that important they would have included anchor holes.
If you look at the back of the OEM All Weather mats you'll see that they have very deep dimples to prevent the mats from shifting, so I have no intentions of removing the carpeted mats, since I like the extra sound absorption that they afford.
If I noticed any shifting, in the least, then, and only then would I remove the carpeted mats!
I think that Lexus sent this notice out just to protect their liability.
I have checked all the manufacturers of aftermarket all weather mats and NONE of them have anchor holes. All they have are some sort of dimples to prevent shifting! I'm sure if they were that important they would have included anchor holes.
If the All-weather mat slides two inches forward, the pedal can easily be trapped in the formed channel around the mat. This is not a situation where the mat is over top of the pedal. If you choose to test this for yourself be certain you do it with the car in Park and off. You won't believe how simple it is to create the interference.
If even still you decide that you want to disregard the warnings and want to risk your life and the lives of those riding with you by not anchoring the mat, consider doing it anyway for the safety of other motorists on the road that you might harm.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 07:25 AM.
06-20-07, 11:18 AM
#36
Re: the cruise control theory - isn't one of the failsafes of any cruise control system that it isn't functional below speeds of ~ 25mph?
Not trying to create conflict here - my wife drives one of these things so I've been following the threads with interest and curiosity.
Not trying to create conflict here - my wife drives one of these things so I've been following the threads with interest and curiosity.
06-20-07, 04:46 PM
#37
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Toyota needs to re-look at the fault tree
Re: the cruise control theory - isn't one of the failsafes of any cruise control system that it isn't functional below speeds of ~ 25mph?
Not trying to create conflict here - my wife drives one of these things so I've been following the threads with interest and curiosity.
Not trying to create conflict here - my wife drives one of these things so I've been following the threads with interest and curiosity.
06-20-07, 09:02 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
Using the anchors as instructed by the manufacturer is recommended for a reason. Without the anchors the mats can slide, even though the spikes (or dimples as you call them) are present. Maybe you are lucky and your mats have not yet moved but why would anyone risk safety and do the wrong thing for something superfluous? Did you see the nearly imperceptible warning on the front leading edge of the All-weather mat that says "Do not place over existing floor mats?"
If the All-weather mat slides two inches forward, the pedal can easily be trapped in the formed channel around the mat. This is not a situation where the mat is over top of the pedal. If you choose to test this for yourself be certain you do it with the car in Park and off. You won't believe how simple it is to create the interference.
If even still you decide that you want to disregard the warnings and want to risk your life and the lives of those riding with you by not anchoring the mat, consider doing it anyway for the safety of other motorists on the road that you might harm.
Additionally, in the event that you have an accident (resulting from unintended acceleration) and the mats are not anchored, don't be surprised if your insurance company refuses to pay on a basis of wanton negligence.
Lastly, most aftermarket mats do not have the formed channel around the mat where the accelerator pedal can be trapped so it's a failure mode so far unique to the Lexus All-weather mat.
If the All-weather mat slides two inches forward, the pedal can easily be trapped in the formed channel around the mat. This is not a situation where the mat is over top of the pedal. If you choose to test this for yourself be certain you do it with the car in Park and off. You won't believe how simple it is to create the interference.
If even still you decide that you want to disregard the warnings and want to risk your life and the lives of those riding with you by not anchoring the mat, consider doing it anyway for the safety of other motorists on the road that you might harm.
Additionally, in the event that you have an accident (resulting from unintended acceleration) and the mats are not anchored, don't be surprised if your insurance company refuses to pay on a basis of wanton negligence.
Lastly, most aftermarket mats do not have the formed channel around the mat where the accelerator pedal can be trapped so it's a failure mode so far unique to the Lexus All-weather mat.
I suggest you read some other notices that other companies have released.
Read> http://www.rinkworks.com/said/warnings.shtml
06-20-07, 09:26 PM
#39
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I'm not going to reiterate all my reasons for following my course of action, except to tell you once again why Lexus sent out this letter about removing the carpeted mats when installing the All Weather Mats. IT WAS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM LAW SUITS IN THE EVENT THAT SOMEBODY WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO BRING THIS LUDICROUS WARNING LABEL TO COURT!
I suggest you read some other notices that other companies have released.
Read> http://www.rinkworks.com/said/warnings.shtml
I suggest you read some other notices that other companies have released.
Read> http://www.rinkworks.com/said/warnings.shtml
Have you attempted to look at the different configurations of the unanchored rubber floor mat to see just how easily it can trap the accelerator?
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:50 AM.
06-20-07, 10:27 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
Have you attempted to look at the different configurations of the unanchored rubber floor mat to see just how easily it can trap the accelerator?
This statement says it all: "Manufacturers of consumer products have to be liberal with the warning labels these days, lest they get sued. But for these, it's hard to know whether the company is being outright stupid or if they're simply targeting the most brain dead dumb among us."
Chill Bill
Last edited by amf1932; 06-20-07 at 10:30 PM.
06-21-07, 04:18 AM
#41
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06-21-07, 05:19 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by ChillBill
Are you saying you are so sure this couldn't possibly happen that you are willing to stake your life on it (or others' lives including those that might drive or ride in your car)?
YES!
[QUOTE=amf1932;2709372]
Quote:
Have you attempted to look at the different configurations of the unanchored rubber floor mat to see just how easily it can trap the accelerator?
YES! I have spent a lot of time taking EXACT measurements before I came to my conclusions. I have checked and rechecked my facts, so they're definitely NOT assumptions!
amf1932,
I see. Trust me, I thought it was a crazy notion too when I first heard of it but seeing is believing. Try moving the mat ~2" forward of the normal anchoring position. If you try this, make sure the car is off. When you press the pedal down and feel the resistance from the plateau surface of the mat, press harder with your finger and the pedal will lock right into the groove of the mat. I'm not saying this is the only possible problem that leads to unintended acceleration but it is a completely obvious one once you see it. Please make sure your floor mat is positively anchored so this can't happen.
Are you saying you are so sure this couldn't possibly happen that you are willing to stake your life on it (or others' lives including those that might drive or ride in your car)?
YES!
[QUOTE=amf1932;2709372]
Quote:
Have you attempted to look at the different configurations of the unanchored rubber floor mat to see just how easily it can trap the accelerator?
YES! I have spent a lot of time taking EXACT measurements before I came to my conclusions. I have checked and rechecked my facts, so they're definitely NOT assumptions!
amf1932,
I see. Trust me, I thought it was a crazy notion too when I first heard of it but seeing is believing. Try moving the mat ~2" forward of the normal anchoring position. If you try this, make sure the car is off. When you press the pedal down and feel the resistance from the plateau surface of the mat, press harder with your finger and the pedal will lock right into the groove of the mat. I'm not saying this is the only possible problem that leads to unintended acceleration but it is a completely obvious one once you see it. Please make sure your floor mat is positively anchored so this can't happen.
Last edited by ChillBill; 06-28-07 at 11:26 AM.
06-21-07, 09:24 AM
#43
Lexus Champion
OK.....Here are some pictures that show the All weather mats, over the carpeted mats, with much less distortion than your photo!
Answer this for me:
In all the pictures the mat is underneath the accelerator pedal, so how would that interfere with holding the pedal down for unintended acceleration? IT CAN'T!
The only way I could move the mat to 2" forward(for illustration), was to lift it up manually, because it was impossible to make this shift by sliding it, due to the deep dimples on the bottom of the mat! You'll still notice that even in the wrong position there is NO restriction of the accelerator pedal!
Even if I lifted the mat to be on top of the accelerator pedal, the pedals return spring will still be stronger then the weight of the mat.
All these, "what if" scenarios are really becoming quite ridiculous!
Mat's in Normal Position
Mat's in 2" Forward Position
Answer this for me:
In all the pictures the mat is underneath the accelerator pedal, so how would that interfere with holding the pedal down for unintended acceleration? IT CAN'T!
The only way I could move the mat to 2" forward(for illustration), was to lift it up manually, because it was impossible to make this shift by sliding it, due to the deep dimples on the bottom of the mat! You'll still notice that even in the wrong position there is NO restriction of the accelerator pedal!
Even if I lifted the mat to be on top of the accelerator pedal, the pedals return spring will still be stronger then the weight of the mat.
All these, "what if" scenarios are really becoming quite ridiculous!
Mat's in Normal Position
Mat's in 2" Forward Position
Last edited by amf1932; 06-21-07 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Addition
06-21-07, 10:09 AM
#45
Lexus Champion
I think they're the same type of mat.........It's just caused by camera distortion. That's why I took photo's of the mat from different angles.