twister

I know we have talked here about cold start engine problems and other related issues to cold start. But, I'm not really sure if what I have applies to this, and indeed if its a problem or a normal behavior? I have 06/06 build with 3k miles on it. Knock-on-wood, don't have any tranny problems, wind noise, or any other problems previously described in here. One thing I noticed is a very consistent behavior EVERY SINGLE morning when I start the car. It doesn't matter if its 70 outside or 39 like it was a few days ago, it always the same. I keep my car outside, and usually don't wait until engine is warm before I start driving. Every morning after starting the car and waiting for maybe 30 sec to a minute I start driving (engine temperature is still low). Than about 2-3 minutes into the drive engine revs up for a second with RPM going to 4k and than back to normal. It ONLY happens in the morning from the cold start, never happens during the day, even after my car is standing on a parking lot for 8-9 hours during the work, and this spike ALWAYS happens around the same time and ONLY once.

Anybody else experience the same with an identical consistency? Is this an expected behavior? I will tell my dealer at 5k service about it, but I'm not really sure if this a problem or not.

ES350Bob

It sounds like the description covered under the TSIB for the transmission. Phoenix posted the actual TSIB, on here somewhere likely a couple pages back by now.

I have something similar occuring though not a daily thing, just when it darn well feels like doing it and it seems as though Wanderer's was as mine is currently though his got consistant the more miles he put on. I'm still lower miles than he by far so I'm going to see if mine gets even more consistant as his did. I also think the software that controls the auto-throttle is hosed up to a degree and could be improved a lot.

wanderer99

Twister, you say that "into the drive" this happens. This suggests that your vehicle is moving at the time as that is the only way the RPMs will go up and down as you accelerate and your trans changes through the gears. Given what we know right now, this is almost certainly a Trans related issue.

When this started happening on our vehicle intermittently at ~1600 miles we had no idea what it was. The trans was so smooth back then that the vehicle would just seem to spike RPM occasionally for no reason. It was weird as you couldn't detect gear changes, but then the RPM would just jump up for no reason.

As time has gone on and the trans has worn, the gear changes are now all felt, and I've developed a method to repeat the trans slippage 100% of the time. It's almost exactly what you descibe: start vehicle, wait until it drops from 1500rpm to just under 1000 or so (ie, wait a minute) then put car in gear and drive away. The engine is still not warm at this point as it still shows as being cold on the temp gauge.

ES350Bob

Wanderer,

My transmission shifting is more noticeable over time as well. Mostly I notice the downshifting with resulting spiking RPM causing a slight jerking just as if driving a stick shift and downshifting it, that is more pronounced now than in the beginning.

onsknht

I have the same exact issue with my 2GR-FE Camry... It happens in the same location "almost" daily as I leave for work between 3rd and 4th gear. It doesn't happen everyday, but it seems to be related to how "spirited" I drive the vehicle after leaving my subdivision... When I drive through the subdivision, there is no opportunity for the car to shift into 4th gear... But when I turn onto the main road, sometimes I am trying to beat traffic. So, since I initially drive through the subdivision aware there are kids, etc, I'm cautious and drive slowly. When I get on it on the main road, I think I briefly confuse the system which in all prior Toyotas would limit gear changes before the engine/transmission reached a certain operating temperature. I think it is possible that at this exact location after initial cold startup the car happens to be shifting and sensing something that briefly confuses the system causing the RPM/slipping/spike... At this point I'm going to wait it out for a real fix instead of banging my head over it... The occurance of the issue is not random and can be expected at the same point after leaving my house, if it craps out then, I can easily walk home. IMO - the valve body change was a knee jerk reaction to a problem that wasn't thoroughly diagnosed, I'd rather have the car in for an ECU reflash than opening the transmission case.

twister

onsknht, funny that it happens to me on the exact spot of the road as well!!!! Actually, now that I come to think about it more, it doesn't happen everyday, but often when I try accelerate a little bit. I go slowly through our townhouse driveway (kids, school buses, etc.), and when turn to a main road it happens almost on the same spot about 30 feet from a turn. Kind of freaky I do not feel any gear changes, just hear engines revs up, RPM needles spikes to 4k and than goes down to 1k-1.5k, and continue driving like nothing happens. And, it only happens ONCE at that moment, never happens again afterwards or during the day. TSIB (TC004-06) refers to 3rd-4th Gear Shift Flare. Hmm, this might be it. This will require a revised transmission valve body, you really think I should wait'n'see? Of course, firmware re-flash would be less intrusive, but if this is a problem that causing wear'n'tear or whatever, I feel like it has to be fixed...

psp

Mine starts cold at about 2000 then goes down to about 700-750 after 30 sec or so.

ES350Bob

twister,

Some have reported on here the TSIB did not solve their problem, in fact it still slips on them like pdg's posts about it and others like the guy who posted the subject title Bam. His TSIB didn't work either it seems.

My car will do this multiple sequential gear sets I believe to be 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 which if you are not paying strict attention to could easily be missed as 2 seperate sets because the transmission shifting can otherwise be so smooth.

Like wanderers was initially mine has no consistancy to doing this as my miles are lower than his. But from reading his posts, mine behaves like his does and vice versa did, only diff being my miles are still so low by comparison.

I think one of the main reasons the TSIB isn't working for some, is because Lexus does not realize this is happening with more than one gear set yet because it is reported as only 1 to them and maybe because their field techs love telling people it isn't slipping it's learning... LOL ...the thing is slipping because you sure aren't surging forward otherwise merited by the RPM showing on the tach if it weren't slipping!

onsknht

Guys... This clearly happens between 3rd and 4th in my car, Bob, I've never had it occur between the other 4 gears... The transmission in my opinion learns very quickly. Try and hotrod around a little bit and then drive like an old lady, you'll definitely feel all six gears, in fact, after some spirited driving and then mellowing out, the transmission shifts almost identical to a someone lazily shifting a manual transmission. Like I can feel a clutch disengage and then reengage.

Whatever the case... If you recall earlier vehicles made by Toyota with an automatic (I've had 3 Camrys, Sequoia, Tacoma, Corrola). In the morning when they were first started and initially driven, they would not shift from 3rd to 4th gear.. If it was really cold, they wouldn't shift from 2nd to 3rd.

I have a feeling this early AM "shift flare" is related to the ECU attempting to control the shift in an effort to warm the engine/transmission... The problem is, the computer also gets a signal from the driver that they "want to go" and it's also getting a signal that the engine/transmission are "warm enough." So the system fumbles for a second or two.

Twister.... Try this, I have.

Start the car 5 minutes before leaving in the morning, then drive as you normally would... I bet as I've seen during my tests, the "shift flare" doesn't occur.

ES350Bob

twister,

Try this if you can do it safely, maybe a weekend day rather than a school day.

Adjust your usual rate of acceleration either lower than typical or much faster than typical and see if you don't notice what I notice about my car, more than one gear set is involved. When I had a second opinion it slipped 2 to 3 and 3 to 4. He said he believed both software and transmission at 2 to 3 and transmission 3 to 4. The 3 to 4 was after slow down and then faster accelerate than my typical, not quite flooring it, but a stronger acceleration than my very casual acceleration norm.

As you and Wanderer might attest that's a miracle the thing did it when you most wanted it demonstrated due to it's only when it darn well feels like it typical. The same for it's downshifting out of the blue on mine.

I honestly thought the best I could hope for as part of my second opinion process was the deisel engine knocking tapping noise I deal with and amazingly the thing slipped but the change in accel. should reveal more to you IMO.

PatB

Yes, twister, you are describing exactly what happens to me every morning at exactly the same spot in the road as I go to work. I've had the TSIB fix, too.

I have about 2500 miles on my car now, and I'm waiting for the 5000 mile check-in to mention this to the service dept. I guess I'm also waiting to see if it gets worse or if it can be duplicated at some other time during the day. So far, it only happens first thing in the a.m. I also notice the transmission seems to "slow down" strangely in the morning as I decelerate (?) into my parking lot. Please keep us posted when you check in for your service.

ES350Bob

Ons,

I have done the above and too funny I'm suggesting similar to you to twister, change the acceleration and see what he sees and or hears.

I went to radio shack to get a tape recorder for the deisel engine knocking tapping noise not at all thinking I'm going to capture anything to do with the transmission when I put it under the hood to record for the engine noise.

When the transmission slips, you see it on tach in car but do not hear the transmission itself. With the recorder under the hood though it sounds like the plaintive cry of a Blue Whale migrating and trying to talk to it's buddies when it happens, aka, like a transmission that needs it's fluid topped off or transmission shop in a hurry.

If you have a tape recorder put it under the hood and you will see what I mean IF your car is doing what mine is that is.

I picked up an Olympus tape recorder from Radio Shack, it's very small and ideal for putting under the hood. There is even an area ideal for it, at passenger side there is a ledge like area near wiper under hood. I put it in an athletic sock to cut down on any potential for wind noise, taped it to plastic near ledge and took off, catching both the deisel engine knocking noise and miracle of miracles the transmission slipping both times I put it under hood days apart.

Do not use the microphone attachment if you decide to check it out yourself or if you do, not anywhere near anything blowing or sucking in air.... LOL ...the quality is less that way than just the recorder itself without the mic attachment. And certainly not before putting it in something like an athletic sock to cut down on that type of "static" noise. My first was with mic and without athletic sock and not on that made for recorder ledge, it's quality sucks but you can still hear it.

ES350Bob

PatB,

I'm glad you posted as having had the TSIB already so twister knows about it directly from you.

I think the slipping was/is always involving more than 1 gear change and is only partially fixed at best with the TSIB. In my case i was told it was learning and I know better, pdg... was also told learning even after TSIB when still happening.

onsknht

I'll try it Bob and see if I note anything different... I'm with you that varying your speed or shall we say "driving rhythm" that the system fudges. Afterall, it is trying to read you mind in a way and when you do something different it hiccups. Try this.... Take off, then "granny" it like you just saw a cop, you'll see it burp for sure!

I see this problem a little differently, maybe that's because I'm basically an "IT" guy even though I do not code programs, etc. And because of this I'm well aware of basic system and technological shortfalls. Granted, Toyota should have never released this package if it were not perfected. However in today's World, consumers are increasingly becoming the guinnea pigs for manufacturers ---->>> It actually reduces costs in the long run?

Take this example.... I'm big on snowmobiling and I buy some of the more advanced equipment, yearly... If you know nothing about the sport, I'll at least tell you that each of the big 4 mfgs. are under pressure for new technology annually unlike the car mfgs where they "reshape" last years model. I've been through numerous ECU calibrations for EFI systems and there's surely been a tech standing there saying, "It's gonna continue to dump fuel after you drop the throttle, there's nothing they can do about it." Primary reason... New technology brought to market too early. The system was not designed to compensate for the fact that people ride sleds through twisty narrow wooded trails at WOT for 3 seconds, then off, then WOT for 4 seconds, then off, then WOT for another 4 seconds before holding it open all the way across a frozen lake. However, if a person were educated (like I became) I found that were I normally held a carburated sled WOT, I needed to hold the fuelie 1/4 - 2/3rds open... Guess what? I got AWESOME fuel mileage, no black residue on the cowl from unburnt fuel and I rode just as fast or faster than anyone in my riding group!!! Meanwhile.... The HYPE on the BBS sites about the problems of the motor/EFI combination now have this snowmobile manufacturer on the verge of quitting their snowmobile line altogether! I'm being totally for real, in fact they've dropped most of their print advertising, but they have a HUGE web advertising presence as of late.

All I'm saying is Toyota obviously has a Learning Curve with the general public and their drive-by-wire 6 speed automatics (soon to be 8-speed)... I'm not following you on mechanical issues or even the "slipping" part, but it does describe the characteristics of the problem, no doubt... I believe the engine and the transmission are mechanically sound (even though some Camry owners have proven mechanical issues). Some general comments/questions about your issues and it isn't my intention to be snide... The "lifter noise," are you sure that isn't "injector" noise? Do you really think the trans is starved for fluid (I thought it may be a draining issue, considering the single daily occurance) or simply confused? And finally... My Camry is super-duper quiet in the wind, but that damn fuel sloshing around in the gas tank is gonna drive me to drink! hehe!

Anyway... A suggestion for you. Take your microphone extension and fasten it to the head or block or the transmission case, then tape off the mic-screen. The vibrations should be picked up clearly through the case of the mic and there will be no wind noise.

We'll get to the bottom of this sooner or later!

twister

I'm taking my car in on Monday. They gonna test drive on Tuesday morning from cold start. Will see what they find and recommend. Will drive IS loaner for a couple of days I have a full confidence they will find a solution to fix this problem. If TSIB fix not gonna work, I will wait for a new firmware fix. In a worst case, I can live with this since its the only problem. If I wont feel comfortable, I'm sure I can workout some extended warranty upgrade, anyway...

For a 5 minute warm up, we need that remote start!!!!!