Cold start RPM spike
10-17-06, 09:24 PM
#16
Driver School Candidate
I have about 11K miles on the car and it was just in last week for the RPM spike and the climate control fixes. Temperature VR works great now.. but my nav is not calibrated. I have to re-calibrate about every time I start the car!!! Also, the RPM spike ... is still there. Will call tomorrow and talk to them about it.
I'll post what I hear.
steve
I'll post what I hear.
steve
10-17-06, 09:44 PM
#17
Twister - my dealer wasn't able to recreate the problem when I had it there for this in early Sept. Since then I've worked out how to recreate it 100% of the time, so its going back next week where I'll leave it overnight then go back in the morning and demonstrate the problem.
To summarise my trans: Worked great at first. Silky smooth, couldn't feel shifts. Trans has been slipping for 10,000Kms+ now for me. It's also developed a whine once its hot that's most apparent when changing at 2000rpm when driving through parking lots at low speeds, etc. Dealer has been out with me and witnessed this. We're not sure what we're going to do yet. I've actually been waiting for my trans to die since 3000kms, but it just hasn't happened yet. I've had all the signs and issues, but no idiot lights have lit up yet.
Sometimes here I think we try to explain things as being OK or normal when they're not. Having driven 4 ES350's now I can say that none of them had the same trans and engine behaviour\characteristics as each other. Engine is louder in some than others. Some vibrate, some clack, some do both. It's the same with the wind noise. And its the same with the trans behaviour.
If our vehicles were almost as troublefree as we think they should be, the poll here on CL with problems would show that 70%+ of members vehicles have no problems. Right now that figure is under 30% that report having no issues. That's huge for a company that prides itself on trying to be as perfect as possible.
To summarise my trans: Worked great at first. Silky smooth, couldn't feel shifts. Trans has been slipping for 10,000Kms+ now for me. It's also developed a whine once its hot that's most apparent when changing at 2000rpm when driving through parking lots at low speeds, etc. Dealer has been out with me and witnessed this. We're not sure what we're going to do yet. I've actually been waiting for my trans to die since 3000kms, but it just hasn't happened yet. I've had all the signs and issues, but no idiot lights have lit up yet.
Sometimes here I think we try to explain things as being OK or normal when they're not. Having driven 4 ES350's now I can say that none of them had the same trans and engine behaviour\characteristics as each other. Engine is louder in some than others. Some vibrate, some clack, some do both. It's the same with the wind noise. And its the same with the trans behaviour.
If our vehicles were almost as troublefree as we think they should be, the poll here on CL with problems would show that 70%+ of members vehicles have no problems. Right now that figure is under 30% that report having no issues. That's huge for a company that prides itself on trying to be as perfect as possible.
10-18-06, 03:54 AM
#18
Lexus Champion
I'll try it Bob and see if I note anything different... I'm with you that varying your speed or shall we say "driving rhythm" that the system fudges. Afterall, it is trying to read you mind in a way and when you do something different it hiccups. Try this.... Take off, then "granny" it like you just saw a cop, you'll see it burp for sure!
I see this problem a little differently, maybe that's because I'm basically an "IT" guy even though I do not code programs, etc. And because of this I'm well aware of basic system and technological shortfalls. Granted, Toyota should have never released this package if it were not perfected. However in today's World, consumers are increasingly becoming the guinnea pigs for manufacturers ---->>> It actually reduces costs in the long run?
Take this example.... I'm big on snowmobiling and I buy some of the more advanced equipment, yearly... If you know nothing about the sport, I'll at least tell you that each of the big 4 mfgs. are under pressure for new technology annually unlike the car mfgs where they "reshape" last years model. I've been through numerous ECU calibrations for EFI systems and there's surely been a tech standing there saying, "It's gonna continue to dump fuel after you drop the throttle, there's nothing they can do about it." Primary reason... New technology brought to market too early. The system was not designed to compensate for the fact that people ride sleds through twisty narrow wooded trails at WOT for 3 seconds, then off, then WOT for 4 seconds, then off, then WOT for another 4 seconds before holding it open all the way across a frozen lake. However, if a person were educated (like I became) I found that were I normally held a carburated sled WOT, I needed to hold the fuelie 1/4 - 2/3rds open... Guess what? I got AWESOME fuel mileage, no black residue on the cowl from unburnt fuel and I rode just as fast or faster than anyone in my riding group!!! Meanwhile.... The HYPE on the BBS sites about the problems of the motor/EFI combination now have this snowmobile manufacturer on the verge of quitting their snowmobile line altogether! I'm being totally for real, in fact they've dropped most of their print advertising, but they have a HUGE web advertising presence as of late.
All I'm saying is Toyota obviously has a Learning Curve with the general public and their drive-by-wire 6 speed automatics (soon to be 8-speed)... I'm not following you on mechanical issues or even the "slipping" part, but it does describe the characteristics of the problem, no doubt... I believe the engine and the transmission are mechanically sound (even though some Camry owners have proven mechanical issues). Some general comments/questions about your issues and it isn't my intention to be snide... The "lifter noise," are you sure that isn't "injector" noise? Do you really think the trans is starved for fluid (I thought it may be a draining issue, considering the single daily occurance) or simply confused? And finally... My Camry is super-duper quiet in the wind, but that damn fuel sloshing around in the gas tank is gonna drive me to drink! hehe!
Anyway... A suggestion for you. Take your microphone extension and fasten it to the head or block or the transmission case, then tape off the mic-screen. The vibrations should be picked up clearly through the case of the mic and there will be no wind noise.
We'll get to the bottom of this sooner or later!
I see this problem a little differently, maybe that's because I'm basically an "IT" guy even though I do not code programs, etc. And because of this I'm well aware of basic system and technological shortfalls. Granted, Toyota should have never released this package if it were not perfected. However in today's World, consumers are increasingly becoming the guinnea pigs for manufacturers ---->>> It actually reduces costs in the long run?
Take this example.... I'm big on snowmobiling and I buy some of the more advanced equipment, yearly... If you know nothing about the sport, I'll at least tell you that each of the big 4 mfgs. are under pressure for new technology annually unlike the car mfgs where they "reshape" last years model. I've been through numerous ECU calibrations for EFI systems and there's surely been a tech standing there saying, "It's gonna continue to dump fuel after you drop the throttle, there's nothing they can do about it." Primary reason... New technology brought to market too early. The system was not designed to compensate for the fact that people ride sleds through twisty narrow wooded trails at WOT for 3 seconds, then off, then WOT for 4 seconds, then off, then WOT for another 4 seconds before holding it open all the way across a frozen lake. However, if a person were educated (like I became) I found that were I normally held a carburated sled WOT, I needed to hold the fuelie 1/4 - 2/3rds open... Guess what? I got AWESOME fuel mileage, no black residue on the cowl from unburnt fuel and I rode just as fast or faster than anyone in my riding group!!! Meanwhile.... The HYPE on the BBS sites about the problems of the motor/EFI combination now have this snowmobile manufacturer on the verge of quitting their snowmobile line altogether! I'm being totally for real, in fact they've dropped most of their print advertising, but they have a HUGE web advertising presence as of late.
All I'm saying is Toyota obviously has a Learning Curve with the general public and their drive-by-wire 6 speed automatics (soon to be 8-speed)... I'm not following you on mechanical issues or even the "slipping" part, but it does describe the characteristics of the problem, no doubt... I believe the engine and the transmission are mechanically sound (even though some Camry owners have proven mechanical issues). Some general comments/questions about your issues and it isn't my intention to be snide... The "lifter noise," are you sure that isn't "injector" noise? Do you really think the trans is starved for fluid (I thought it may be a draining issue, considering the single daily occurance) or simply confused? And finally... My Camry is super-duper quiet in the wind, but that damn fuel sloshing around in the gas tank is gonna drive me to drink! hehe!
Anyway... A suggestion for you. Take your microphone extension and fasten it to the head or block or the transmission case, then tape off the mic-screen. The vibrations should be picked up clearly through the case of the mic and there will be no wind noise.
We'll get to the bottom of this sooner or later!
I'm sure it's not fuel injector and is the valves, before the 27th of last month it had weeks prior been diagnosed as improper valve setting by dealer svc. manager and shop tech foreman, also the same focus by two independent opinions I sought.
As for trans, think of this: if your RPM is spiking and you are not feeling a forward surge that energy is being transferred somewhere if you are not feeling pressed slightly into seat or not slightly lurching forward and in my case it is used to make that migratory Blue Whale sound of a more than confused transmission. So far when it happens it always catches but there have been a few times where it is unsettling when pulling onto a major highway up the street and you fear this is the time it will die permanently on you, but it has always caught the gear so far.
The noise abatement works really well for the transmission so you don't hear that sound when inside the car plus the RPM spike would likely drown most out if you could otherwise, but a recorder under the hood captures it. You hear both the RPM spike as engine noise and the transmission sound on the recordings. The dealer tech foreman actually acknowledged the transmission when he very patiently listened to the entirety of one recording session, the Lexus guy refused to listen to them.
I'm predicting that if you record yours under the hood, just on any suitable ledge, you are going to post back to me that the transmission sounds really pitiful at the same time you hear the engine sound directly related to the spiking RPM you otherwise only see on tach and/or hear as a revving engine.
Unless there has been software degradation, if it were software, it would have done it every day from day one of owning car or after it learned your habits the first two weeks, instead of developing into a daily thing for you and others after up to a thousand plus miles IMO.
BTW: My diesel engine knocking tapping also sounds really pitiful in under hood recordings as does the engine generally. My gas mileage seems to reflect this too, very low mpg for city #.
If you record on any ledge like area you can find under hood near passenger side wiper area, we can then compare notes, if need be next step will be we place it on engine areas or transmission area and compare that too. I think though you are going to be surprised at the sound from transmission where you only otherwise could see RPM spike and/or hear the engine.
Let me know if it sounds like a Blue Whale or Humpback during migration calling across the ocean to it's buddies...LOL
10-18-06, 04:52 AM
#19
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MD
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I have same problem with nav. system after VR fix installed. Dealer went to "tire calibration" screen and ran calibration program. It helped somewhat but system is not like it was before VR fix. I'm lucky if circle around red pointer is touching a known intersection on 150 ft. scale screen. Rep. said there was one more thing they could do if they above "calibration" did not work. Please note that manual states that "tire calibration" should be run after changing tires or after changing tire pressures.
I have about 11K miles on the car and it was just in last week for the RPM spike and the climate control fixes. Temperature VR works great now.. but my nav is not calibrated. I have to re-calibrate about every time I start the car!!! Also, the RPM spike ... is still there. Will call tomorrow and talk to them about it.
I'll post what I hear.
steve
I'll post what I hear.
steve
10-22-06, 01:35 AM
#20
Lead Lap
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ca
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ahah i'll tell u soemthign thats yor problem... a car will obviously not drive right if you're driving it cold...try starting your car.. goign inside eat yoru breakfast then go to work.. by then your car shoudl be fully warmed up...this goes for all cars...
10-22-06, 05:57 AM
#21
Lexus Champion
P.S. Here's one article of many to prove my point: http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/myths/idling.html
Last edited by amf1932; 10-22-06 at 06:23 AM.
10-22-06, 07:49 AM
#22
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
One thing I realized, something that I wrote in my original message and it is INCORRECT when I said "every single morning". Its one of those things when it happens a couple of days in a row when temperature felt below 40, and I got carried away writing "every single morning" just to make my point stronger 
I had this car for 3 month. It really doesn't happen that often, actually. Since my original post on Tuesday, it hasn't happen at all. So, I'm wondering if car is still adjusting to a cold morning since the temperature really dropped in the last few weeks here on East Coast?
I actually, had a chance in the last couple of days to push the car harder with some freeway acceleration and "passing". WOW!!! Its like rediscovering the car all over again!!! This is a big difference from my daily 25 min stop'n'go commute. Also, I was very impressed in handling during a heavy rain. I actually felt some improved handling after the last week when my dealer replaced my scratched rim with a spare one and re-checked tire pressure on all wheels. I feel like they adjust tire pressure lower to meet the spec and now it drives a little better. Overall, I think car is still adjusting to my driving. I'm still taking it tomorrow to a dealer for a check, but I'm pretty sure they will not be able to find this spike. And, considering all the info others shared with us about their TSIB fix and no difference after the fix, if such problem exists I'm getting more convinced it will be resolved with a new Eeprom code (re-flash).
I had this car for 3 month. It really doesn't happen that often, actually. Since my original post on Tuesday, it hasn't happen at all. So, I'm wondering if car is still adjusting to a cold morning since the temperature really dropped in the last few weeks here on East Coast? I actually, had a chance in the last couple of days to push the car harder with some freeway acceleration and "passing". WOW!!! Its like rediscovering the car all over again!!! This is a big difference from my daily 25 min stop'n'go commute. Also, I was very impressed in handling during a heavy rain. I actually felt some improved handling after the last week when my dealer replaced my scratched rim with a spare one and re-checked tire pressure on all wheels. I feel like they adjust tire pressure lower to meet the spec and now it drives a little better. Overall, I think car is still adjusting to my driving. I'm still taking it tomorrow to a dealer for a check, but I'm pretty sure they will not be able to find this spike. And, considering all the info others shared with us about their TSIB fix and no difference after the fix, if such problem exists I'm getting more convinced it will be resolved with a new Eeprom code (re-flash).
10-22-06, 08:51 AM
#23
Lexus Champion
After many sad experiences with transmission re-flashes(3) on my former 2003 ES, I finally traded in this car. I was immediately impressed with the ES350's shifting logic.......it knew exactly what gear to choose under ALL driving conditions. It was almost like driving a stick shift type of car, where if you were an experienced driver you would know whether to upshift or downshift depending on the many variables encountered, such as engine RPM, engine load, weather, etc.
Therefore, unless I felt that the cars shifting pattern was truly out of whack, then and only then would I ever consider doing any kind of re-programming(re-flash). In the past they were only a compromise and not an acceptable fix!
Therefore, unless I felt that the cars shifting pattern was truly out of whack, then and only then would I ever consider doing any kind of re-programming(re-flash). In the past they were only a compromise and not an acceptable fix!
10-22-06, 09:13 AM
#24
Lexus Champion
One thing I realized, something that I wrote in my original message and it is INCORRECT when I said "every single morning". Its one of those things when it happens a couple of days in a row when temperature felt below 40, and I got carried away writing "every single morning" just to make my point stronger I had this car for 3 month. It really doesn't happen that often, actually. Since my original post on Tuesday, it hasn't happen at all. So, I'm wondering if car is still adjusting to a cold morning since the temperature really dropped in the last few weeks here on East Coast? (re-flash).
I had this car for 3 month. It really doesn't happen that often, actually. Since my original post on Tuesday, it hasn't happen at all. So, I'm wondering if car is still adjusting to a cold morning since the temperature really dropped in the last few weeks here on East Coast? (re-flash).I'm real confused as to reason for original concern.
Your original post said it didn't matter whether it was 70 degrees or 39 and it was an every day issue so I and many others responded to your concern about it.
Now you say it is not an every day issue, in fact you say it does not happen that often, and seems related to cold weather.
10-22-06, 09:24 AM
#25
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Hmm, that is a good info Alan. I will definitely keep that in mind... Its really easy to get spoiled with Lexus experience (the first one for me). Afterwards, even a glitch which could be a normal thing is taken as something out of ordinary. I get reminded all the time how great our ES350 is when I'm in any other cars, either driving or as a passenger (no matter if its SUV, sedan, or another luxury vehicle).
Funny how I started this thread on a sour note, and making more and more upbeat replies
But, one thing for sure, in a future no matter how confindent I'm in the brand/model of the car, I will be more cautious in buying a brand new model with a new redesigned engine/tranny 2-3 month after its introduction. Even for a piece of mind, it still makes sense to wait a little bit.
Funny how I started this thread on a sour note, and making more and more upbeat replies
But, one thing for sure, in a future no matter how confindent I'm in the brand/model of the car, I will be more cautious in buying a brand new model with a new redesigned engine/tranny 2-3 month after its introduction. Even for a piece of mind, it still makes sense to wait a little bit.
10-22-06, 10:10 AM
#26
Lexus Champion
Hmm, that is a good info Alan. I will definitely keep that in mind... Its really easy to get spoiled with Lexus experience (the first one for me). Afterwards, even a glitch which could be a normal thing is taken as something out of ordinary. I get reminded all the time how great our ES350 is when I'm in any other cars, either driving or as a passenger (no matter if its SUV, sedan, or another luxury vehicle).
Funny how I started this thread on a sour note, and making more and more upbeat replies But, one thing for sure, in a future no matter how confindent I'm in the brand/model of the car, I will be more cautious in buying a brand new model with a new redesigned engine/tranny 2-3 month after its introduction. Even for a piece of mind, it still makes sense to wait a little bit.
Funny how I started this thread on a sour note, and making more and more upbeat replies
But, one thing for sure, in a future no matter how confindent I'm in the brand/model of the car, I will be more cautious in buying a brand new model with a new redesigned engine/tranny 2-3 month after its introduction. Even for a piece of mind, it still makes sense to wait a little bit.the '02 thru '06 ES models! Believe it or not, it was never corrected satisfactorily, IMO and others.
I bought an early model ES350(3/06 build) and I NEVER had ANY problems in each and every mechanical respect! Lucky I guess. I was definitely concerned about buying this new model ES, but it comes down to one thing.....it's the luck of the draw. Don't think that when Lexus comes out with a TSB for each and every model year that they're going to correct these problems in future builds! It's been proven they DON'T!!!
10-22-06, 12:40 PM
#27
One of the reasons I didn't purchase an ES330 a year ago was I knew all about the trans issues with that car. I also knew the ECU flash TSIB for the ES300\330 models didn't really fix the issue either. People were really upset about that trans!
10-22-06, 12:48 PM
#28
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Twister,
I'm real confused as to reason for original concern.
Your original post said it didn't matter whether it was 70 degrees or 39 and it was an every day issue so I and many others responded to your concern about it.
Now you say it is not an every day issue, in fact you say it does not happen that often, and seems related to cold weather.
I'm real confused as to reason for original concern.
Your original post said it didn't matter whether it was 70 degrees or 39 and it was an every day issue so I and many others responded to your concern about it.
Now you say it is not an every day issue, in fact you say it does not happen that often, and seems related to cold weather.
Otherwise, I'm driving myself crazy trying to apply every single problem to my car. Gotta ask PsychDoc if he can recommend anything from auto-paranoia 
10-22-06, 04:50 PM
#29
a
I have same problem with nav. system after VR fix installed. Dealer went to "tire calibration" screen and ran calibration program. It helped somewhat but system is not like it was before VR fix. I'm lucky if circle around red pointer is touching a known intersection on 150 ft. scale screen. Rep. said there was one more thing they could do if they above "calibration" did not work. Please note that manual states that "tire calibration" should be run after changing tires or after changing tire pressures.
I have same problem with nav. system after VR fix installed. Dealer went to "tire calibration" screen and ran calibration program. It helped somewhat but system is not like it was before VR fix. I'm lucky if circle around red pointer is touching a known intersection on 150 ft. scale screen. Rep. said there was one more thing they could do if they above "calibration" did not work. Please note that manual states that "tire calibration" should be run after changing tires or after changing tire pressures.
Press the Menu button, then the Setup icon. Arrow down to the third screen and press the Adjust box on the Calibration option (it's the last line). Press the Position/Direction icon.
This will allow you to tweak the location of your car icon (the triangle) on the map. Move it forward several clicks. Press Enter.
Then you can change the angle of the car. Press Enter.
Now take your car out and see if the car's position on the map matches what you see out your window. I had to play around with mine for awhile until I got it dialed in, but now my map position is where it should be.
10-22-06, 05:33 PM
#30
Twister, wait until you've got some more miles then it might happen everytime. It happened this morning for me when I took my wife to work. I drove home, let the vehicle sit for 5 hours then drove it again. The trans slipped again on the 3/4 shift. So thats twice in one day for me.