Upper Timing Belt Idler
11-12-15, 12:28 PM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Upper Timing Belt Idler
Used a stethoscope and found noise coming through timing cover just above upper idler. I removed the alternator belt to eliminate that possibility.
I need to pull the timing cover to reconfirm it is the idler.
The idler has 141,000 on it. My question is, the noise is intermittent. Sounds like a dry bearing and occasional chirping, then there is times you hear nothing. The duration of the noise can be several moments to 10 minutes. Is that the signs of it going?
Back story - Lexus dealer did timing belt/water pump service at 96,000. They did not do the idlers or tensioner. Certainly with the miles on it, I will replace it.
I need to pull the timing cover to reconfirm it is the idler.
The idler has 141,000 on it. My question is, the noise is intermittent. Sounds like a dry bearing and occasional chirping, then there is times you hear nothing. The duration of the noise can be several moments to 10 minutes. Is that the signs of it going?
Back story - Lexus dealer did timing belt/water pump service at 96,000. They did not do the idlers or tensioner. Certainly with the miles on it, I will replace it.
11-12-15, 12:57 PM
#2
I wouldn't be taking my car back to that specific Lexus dealer if they can't understand that the tensioner and idler should be replaced. Also I would wonder if the camshaft and crankshaft seals were replaced?
11-12-15, 01:24 PM
#3
Intermediate
Thread Starter
11-13-15, 01:04 AM
#4
According to the FSM and my personal experience with 5 of these engines, the hydraulic tensioner does not need replacing unless it is leaking oil. I have never replaced one and never had one fail. Idlers should definitely be replaced. They will run dry for a long, long time but I do not like that proposition. See posts by Code58 on the RX300 forum. Also do not agree with replacing WP until the second TB replacement unless bearing is sticky/rough. No need to change seals unless they are leaking.
Last edited by artbuc; 11-13-15 at 01:12 AM.
11-13-15, 10:20 AM
#5
Based on decades of field experience, the idler and tensioners should never be left on at a 90k t-belt job. Most manufacturers who originally spec'd it that way in the 90s have changed their tune and updated manuals.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
11-13-15, 10:45 AM
#6
Based on decades of field experience, the idler and tensioners should never be left on at a 90k t-belt job. Most manufacturers who originally spec'd it that way in the 90s have changed their tune and updated manuals.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
Edit: Oops, never mind...I just realized you were talking about the Acura FSM. When you say "they" let go at 143k, are you saying the hydraulic tensioner and idlers all failed at the same time?
Last edited by artbuc; 11-13-15 at 10:50 AM.
11-13-15, 07:49 PM
#7
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Based on decades of field experience, the idler and tensioners should never be left on at a 90k t-belt job. Most manufacturers who originally spec'd it that way in the 90s have changed their tune and updated manuals.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
I had only little time today, so i pulled the top cover, set TDC marks, marked belt, used quick grip clamps on each cam gear to hold down belt. removed tensioner, replaced top idler, reset tensioner, installed and pulled pin. Let it sit for 3 minutes, then slowly rotated crank clockwise to confirm movement and gaining tension on belt. Then completed 2 revolutions, TDC marks lined up perfectly. Buttoned it up
Will do the bottom half next when the parts arrive.
Question, i jacked the passenger side, front, pulled tire. Did not put it on a rack. When I do the bottom end, how will I be able to hit the 159 ft lb torque on the dampner, Wrench aiming up toward the hood? If i use an extension through the wheel well, can I still achieve the torque?
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11-13-15, 08:09 PM
#8
Based on decades of field experience, the idler and tensioners should never be left on at a 90k t-belt job. Most manufacturers who originally spec'd it that way in the 90s have changed their tune and updated manuals.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
Strongly 2nd the opinion to avoid that dealership and let others know about it.
I lost a timing belt for the same reason; in this case an Acura Dealership (Acura of Portland) that did not know of the the FSM update and did not do the tensioner and idlers. They let go at 143k. While not a Toyota, they were the same idlers and Aisin tensioner in my vehicle as in the 2002 ES300.
So yes, the idler and tensioner should be very suspect to you, and if you know they are original with that mileage, replace them. Would not open water pump if it's recent; they are usually good for 2 tb intervals in reality. I also would not wonder about cam/crank seals. They are good for multiple intervals, also and doing them at each TB service is slight overkill.
11-13-15, 11:55 PM
#9
I changed out the top idler today. It was dry as a bone - no grease in it.You could shake it and hear the bearing. When I spun it though it did not feel notchy.
I had only little time today, so i pulled the top cover, set TDC marks, marked belt, used quick grip clamps on each cam gear to hold down belt. removed tensioner, replaced top idler, reset tensioner, installed and pulled pin. Let it sit for 3 minutes, then slowly rotated crank clockwise to confirm movement and gaining tension on belt. Then completed 2 revolutions, TDC marks lined up perfectly. Buttoned it up
Will do the bottom half next when the parts arrive.
Question, i jacked the passenger side, front, pulled tire. Did not put it on a rack. When I do the bottom end, how will I be able to hit the 159 ft lb torque on the dampner, Wrench aiming up toward the hood? If i use an extension through the wheel well, can I still achieve the torque?
I had only little time today, so i pulled the top cover, set TDC marks, marked belt, used quick grip clamps on each cam gear to hold down belt. removed tensioner, replaced top idler, reset tensioner, installed and pulled pin. Let it sit for 3 minutes, then slowly rotated crank clockwise to confirm movement and gaining tension on belt. Then completed 2 revolutions, TDC marks lined up perfectly. Buttoned it up
Will do the bottom half next when the parts arrive.
Question, i jacked the passenger side, front, pulled tire. Did not put it on a rack. When I do the bottom end, how will I be able to hit the 159 ft lb torque on the dampner, Wrench aiming up toward the hood? If i use an extension through the wheel well, can I still achieve the torque?
(I'll put a video link tomorrow, but in the mean time, we will science the **** out of this.)BS aside, what are you worried about torqueing? If you have a torque wrench, use it. If it exceeds it, take cheap PVC piping that fits over the end. Use math to figure the addition leverage/distance. You can take a standard Craftsman 1/2" torque wrench and make it good up to 800 ft/lbs this way.
Yes, Honda, Acura, Isuzu figured out a decade ago the Aisin timing components won't last 180k miles. Sorry to break the news now!
The crankshaft/camshaft seals have been proven good in the 1mz-fe to 1/4 million miles or more in standard usage; change them when you want based on your use/abuse/comfort level.
Last edited by Oro; 11-14-15 at 12:02 AM.
11-14-15, 01:09 AM
#10
BS aside, what are you worried about torqueing? If you have a torque wrench, use it. If it exceeds it, take cheap PVC piping that fits over the end. Use math to figure the addition leverage/distance. You can take a standard Craftsman 1/2" torque wrench and make it good up to 800 ft/lbs this way.
Yes, Honda, Acura, Isuzu figured out a decade ago the Aisin timing components won't last 180k miles. Sorry to break the news now!
Yes, Honda, Acura, Isuzu figured out a decade ago the Aisin timing components won't last 180k miles. Sorry to break the news now!
http://www.freeinfostuff.com/TorqueE...eExtension.htm
The dry idler bearing still running smoothly is what I was talking about.
Still do not buy the 180k limit based on my personal experience and experience of many other posters on Toyota/Lexus forums who have gone 200-250k+ miles without a hydraulic tensioner or idler bearing failure.
11-14-15, 06:41 AM
#11
The pic pipe will slip over the handle end making the lever arm longer and dramatically magnify the torque applied at the fastener. I tend to use iron gas pipe myself but that's besides the point, this tactic does work exceeding well, simple pysical leverage. Basically a giant breaker bar.
11-14-15, 06:48 AM
#12
The pic pipe will slip over the handle end making the lever arm longer and dramatically magnify the torque applied at the fastener. I tend to use iron gas pipe myself but that's besides the point, this tactic does work exceeding well, simple pysical leverage. Basically a giant breaker bar.
11-14-15, 08:52 AM
#14
Based on Oro's advice regarding how to increase a craftsman torque wrench capacity to 800ft-lbs, I would not pay much attention to anything he says regarding the longevity of tensioners and idlers.
11-14-15, 09:32 AM
#15
Unless he is talking about using the torque wrench on the handle end and a breaker bar on the fastener end with the pipe as an intermediate component. Just double or triple check your math on the lever arm length. Torque multipliers were what we used at the structural engineering lab I used to work at, but cost is not a factor in that environment.