Hey you guys who've done your suspension...
07-06-12, 11:45 AM
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Hey you guys who've done your suspension...
I'm getting ready to do mine and have some questions. I've been looking at parts/prices on the web and doing reading here for the past week or so. Just replacing shocks/bushings - no springs I originally was going down the KYB path and am am still leaning that way. Then I saw the Gabriel/Monroe all-in-one replacement struts and am tempted to go that way, except they only sell the rears pre-assembled (If they had fronts and rears pre-assembled I' probably just go that way - make the job a lot easier).
First, rear upper spring insulator: KYB sells, from what I can tell a ring looking thingy, for ~$15. Lexus parts ctalog shows a much beefier looking thing - might include the dust boot too(?) - for ~$55. Anyone have any input they could offer on this?
In general, even if I decide to go KYB, should I get the Lexus mounting parts? There seems to be some discussion on the cars makingnoises on some aftermarket components. I've seen on some on-line catalogs a plethora of different manufacturers, is there one whichi is really OEM?
After pricing up the KYB stuff (including their lower cost mounting hardware) it adds up to ~$700. Looks like the Gabriel/Monroe options may be less $$, even with the OEM mounting parts, but I'm still putting a spreadsheet together.
Any input would be helpful. I'm basically replacing worn out suspension stuff before my daughter takes the car to school this fall, so don;t want to lower it or do anything extreme or too expensive, but I also want to get some quality parts. Thanks in advance!
First, rear upper spring insulator: KYB sells, from what I can tell a ring looking thingy, for ~$15. Lexus parts ctalog shows a much beefier looking thing - might include the dust boot too(?) - for ~$55. Anyone have any input they could offer on this?
In general, even if I decide to go KYB, should I get the Lexus mounting parts? There seems to be some discussion on the cars makingnoises on some aftermarket components. I've seen on some on-line catalogs a plethora of different manufacturers, is there one whichi is really OEM?
After pricing up the KYB stuff (including their lower cost mounting hardware) it adds up to ~$700. Looks like the Gabriel/Monroe options may be less $$, even with the OEM mounting parts, but I'm still putting a spreadsheet together.
Any input would be helpful. I'm basically replacing worn out suspension stuff before my daughter takes the car to school this fall, so don;t want to lower it or do anything extreme or too expensive, but I also want to get some quality parts. Thanks in advance!
07-06-12, 01:11 PM
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Also had some Q's on the front suspension...
the OEM catalog calls out upper and lower insulators, wheras the KYB 'setup' does not. Does the KYB setup include insulators, or do I need to also purchase those? KYB calls out upper and lower insulators for the rear.
the OEM catalog calls out upper and lower insulators, wheras the KYB 'setup' does not. Does the KYB setup include insulators, or do I need to also purchase those? KYB calls out upper and lower insulators for the rear.
07-06-12, 01:37 PM
#3
Lexus Champion
Getting the all in one replacements is by far the easiest way to go. I thought Monroe did make a Quick Strut for your car including the fronts, maybe not? I personally do not like the Quick Strut type replacements, some people have complained the car rides too high and that the suspension took time to "settle". Others have had them make noise even when new.
If you want to get as close as possible to the original ride quality, go with Monroe OESpectrum. If you want more sporty, get the KYB's. I have not tried out the Gabriel's. If you do end up building a new strut assembly yourself, go with original parts for the upper mount, aftermarket on this part will probably make you regret using it. Lexus calls this part a support sub assembly.
So for parts you will need:
Strut (your choice of brand)
SUPPORT SUB-ASSY aka upper mount
Upper insulator (this is the rubber boot)
Lower insulator
You can generally re-use the strut bearing and the bump stopper. The upper and lower insulator you can go aftermarket on these if you can find them (I've never been able to). BTW, left and right hand side parts are the same AFAIK but when you order check with the dealer. Not sure what you mean by "KYB setup" but if you are building your own struts then you have to buy all the parts separately, whether from Lexus or KYB or whoever. Unless there is some sort of kit I am not aware of.
If you want to get as close as possible to the original ride quality, go with Monroe OESpectrum. If you want more sporty, get the KYB's. I have not tried out the Gabriel's. If you do end up building a new strut assembly yourself, go with original parts for the upper mount, aftermarket on this part will probably make you regret using it. Lexus calls this part a support sub assembly.
So for parts you will need:
Strut (your choice of brand)
SUPPORT SUB-ASSY aka upper mount
Upper insulator (this is the rubber boot)
Lower insulator
You can generally re-use the strut bearing and the bump stopper. The upper and lower insulator you can go aftermarket on these if you can find them (I've never been able to). BTW, left and right hand side parts are the same AFAIK but when you order check with the dealer. Not sure what you mean by "KYB setup" but if you are building your own struts then you have to buy all the parts separately, whether from Lexus or KYB or whoever. Unless there is some sort of kit I am not aware of.
07-06-12, 01:50 PM
#4
Lead Lap
I am working on assembling a refresh of struts myself. I think I can address some of your questions:
(*EDIT* I was thinking 3ES (97-01) just noticed you didn't say what year, but I'll leave this here just in case)
- Monroe does make a quick strut for front and rear. All the extra parts for a full strut will cost a few hundred so the assembled ones are a good deal. That said I've no idea of the quality.
- I got KYB strut mounts, some have had bad luck with them, maybe that problem is solved now. Best would be OEM there but they will cost you, $100/ea front, $150/ea rear from the discount online parts places.
- The stock front upper spring insulator includes the dusboot, it is one piece. the replacements are just the "ring" as you say so if you you were to go that way you need to buy a front dust boot kit as well. This was the one place I bought the OEM parts.
- You don't really need to change any of this, unless it is broken or worn out. Mounts, isolators, spring seats could all be good. Typically you might just get new struts and transfer all the parts from the old to the new. So you could compare the Quickstrut to that? Old OEM stuff vs. new Monroe stuff.
I have assembled a list, of all the stuff that is needed to replace the entire strut. Since I am saving money by DIY, I am putting that money into using Tokico blues and building an entire new strut. Here is my list:
Above doesn't even include the Tokico Blues I bought. Though I am going for something slightly more performance oriented. I need to stop being so damn particular those quick struts are a heckuva deal...
(*EDIT* I was thinking 3ES (97-01) just noticed you didn't say what year, but I'll leave this here just in case)
- Monroe does make a quick strut for front and rear. All the extra parts for a full strut will cost a few hundred so the assembled ones are a good deal. That said I've no idea of the quality.
- I got KYB strut mounts, some have had bad luck with them, maybe that problem is solved now. Best would be OEM there but they will cost you, $100/ea front, $150/ea rear from the discount online parts places.
- The stock front upper spring insulator includes the dusboot, it is one piece. the replacements are just the "ring" as you say so if you you were to go that way you need to buy a front dust boot kit as well. This was the one place I bought the OEM parts.
- You don't really need to change any of this, unless it is broken or worn out. Mounts, isolators, spring seats could all be good. Typically you might just get new struts and transfer all the parts from the old to the new. So you could compare the Quickstrut to that? Old OEM stuff vs. new Monroe stuff.
I have assembled a list, of all the stuff that is needed to replace the entire strut. Since I am saving money by DIY, I am putting that money into using Tokico blues and building an entire new strut. Here is my list:
Code:
Mounting stuff: KYB SM5175 Strut Mount 2 $ 95.58 MOOG K90236 Strut Mount 1 $ 78.99 MOOG K90237 Strut Mount 1 $ 75.79 MOOG K90725 Coil Spring Insulator 2 $ 19.86 Lexus 4815707010 INSULATOR, FR COIL S 2 $27.66 Lexus 482580E010 INSULATOR, RR COIL S 2 $18.98 (or: MOOG K80925) Optional stuff to build a whole strut: MOOG K160014 Coil Spring Seat 2 $35.50 RAYBESTOS 5851252 Coil Spring 1 $92.79 RAYBESTOS 5911130 Coil spring 1 $97.89 Lexus 4833106011 BUMPER, FR SPRING 2 $27.66 Lexus 4834132053 BUMPER, RR SPRING 2 $18.42 Lexus 9008038148 COLLAR 2 $10.98 MOOG K929 Caster / Camber Cam Bolt Kit 1 $ 11.63 MOOG K90208 Caster / Camber Cam Bolt Kit 1 $ 11.21
Last edited by Power6; 08-13-12 at 06:53 AM. Reason: Updated parts list for 3ES
07-06-12, 09:14 PM
#5
Getting the all in one replacements is by far the easiest way to go. I thought Monroe did make a Quick Strut for your car including the fronts, maybe not? I personally do not like the Quick Strut type replacements, some people have complained the car rides too high and that the suspension took time to "settle". Others have had them make noise even when new.
Aaaaaannnnndddd, they cost me ~580$ ish shipped within USA, and then 125$ off on the lot as a rebate a few weeks later.
So in the end, i got the full set for less than the new struts from KYB would run me... let alone mounts, etc.
Go with the Monroe QuickStrut from Rockauto.com, for a 'daily' driver. I saw it was worth it.
I redid the ENTIRE suspension on the 3ES in the last year.
07-06-12, 09:48 PM
#6
Last time I priced out a complete suspension overhaul, this is what I came up with:
All the mounts and rubber components from Toyota: ~$500
Aftermarket Struts and Springs (I chose Tokico Struts and H&R Springs) ~500-600
If you go with pre-assembled struts, you will save a ton of cash, but there is no guarantee on quality. It's up to you.
All the mounts and rubber components from Toyota: ~$500
Aftermarket Struts and Springs (I chose Tokico Struts and H&R Springs) ~500-600
If you go with pre-assembled struts, you will save a ton of cash, but there is no guarantee on quality. It's up to you.
07-06-12, 10:30 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
I don't see them listed for the 2nd gen ES on Rockauto.com, not the fronts. The backs are available but those fit 1992-2001 I think.
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07-07-12, 09:23 AM
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Sorry guys, I have a '96 (2ES). The last car I did I was changing out the springs too, and I had the mounts, etc., so I just paid a shop $80 to assemble the four struts - worth it to me not to have to deal with compressing the springs. The it was a very simple matter of popping off the old strut assy and puttng on the new one. Why the Quick/Ready-strut route was appealing to me. But...
After doing a little research and reading some horror stories about the quality of the all in one's, I decided to just go the KYB route. What I meant by 'KYB setup' was using all KYB parts to build up the strut (along with the stock spring). The fact I could only get rear complete assy's from Monroe or Gabriel had a lot to do with it too (a phone call to each of the factories confirmed the fronts were not available). In my searcing, it was mentioned more than once that KYB was the OEM supplier, and that's what it claims on the autohausaz.com website.
Also from my reading, it seems the KYB stuff has some of the insulators built in or come with (??? - you KYB guys please let me know on this, on the front stuff). Rock auto had the best prices, but shipping was kind of steep. Justsuspension.com was only a couple bucks more on each of the parts, but I found a $25 off code while searching plus they have free shipping, so I got the suspension stuff from them and just got the sway bar bushings/end links from rockauto (also found a 5% off code for rockauto.com, but it was still cheaper to get the stuff thru justsuspension).
I just ordered all the KYB components listed for a '96 es300, and the total after the discount was $585. The sway bar stuff thru rockauto was $115 with shipping, so the grand total was right at $700 'out the door'.
Thanks for all the help/input guys, and for any more advice you have - I do appreciate it. Here's the spreadsheet I put together while wasting away most of yesterday:
After doing a little research and reading some horror stories about the quality of the all in one's, I decided to just go the KYB route. What I meant by 'KYB setup' was using all KYB parts to build up the strut (along with the stock spring). The fact I could only get rear complete assy's from Monroe or Gabriel had a lot to do with it too (a phone call to each of the factories confirmed the fronts were not available). In my searcing, it was mentioned more than once that KYB was the OEM supplier, and that's what it claims on the autohausaz.com website.
Also from my reading, it seems the KYB stuff has some of the insulators built in or come with (??? - you KYB guys please let me know on this, on the front stuff). Rock auto had the best prices, but shipping was kind of steep. Justsuspension.com was only a couple bucks more on each of the parts, but I found a $25 off code while searching plus they have free shipping, so I got the suspension stuff from them and just got the sway bar bushings/end links from rockauto (also found a 5% off code for rockauto.com, but it was still cheaper to get the stuff thru justsuspension).
I just ordered all the KYB components listed for a '96 es300, and the total after the discount was $585. The sway bar stuff thru rockauto was $115 with shipping, so the grand total was right at $700 'out the door'.
Thanks for all the help/input guys, and for any more advice you have - I do appreciate it. Here's the spreadsheet I put together while wasting away most of yesterday:
07-07-12, 09:30 AM
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PS - one other thing to note is that the strut prices were all about the same (I don't have Gabriel price listed, but it was about the same as the Monroe). I haven't had good luck with Monroe, but have with Gabriel. I did an Acura Integra with the KYB GR2's a while ago and really liked them, so in that sense it became a no-brainer for me...
08-09-12, 04:08 PM
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OK, so I'm done putting the struts & stuff in and have a couple notes... I went with all KYB parts for the struts/mounts, and moog for the sway bar links/bushings.
First, the front KYB struts DO NOT come with the lower spring insulators (but the rears DO) so you'll need to order those (I wound up re-using my thrashed old ones becasue I didn't want to wait days to put things back together).
Also, you'll want to order the stock bellows/boot for the rear struts. I got by with the KYB, but they are no where near as nice and it took a few extra tries of compressing/releasing the springs to get everything lined up correctly. The Stock boot/bellows also incluced the upper insulator, which has a nice 'hat' & groove setup for the spring to sit in and everything aligns nicely. Definitely worth the extra few buck - worth it for the nicer parts alone, but you will save time and frustration.
You also want the stock insulator because it is 1/4"~1/2" thicker than the KYB insulator, which means the rear sags about 1/4"~1/2" with the KYB insulator in vs. stock (bummed about this!!). The KYB front upper spring insulator is just fine.
The KYB boots/bellows are also fine for the front. The KYB boot/bellows come with bumpers (so the struts don't bottom out).
The old struts were definitely worn out (188,000 miles on them) - the car doesn't bounce anymore and floats over the bumps/dips.
Just thought I'd pass along those tidbits, as I wish I had come across them in my searching...
First, the front KYB struts DO NOT come with the lower spring insulators (but the rears DO) so you'll need to order those (I wound up re-using my thrashed old ones becasue I didn't want to wait days to put things back together).
Also, you'll want to order the stock bellows/boot for the rear struts. I got by with the KYB, but they are no where near as nice and it took a few extra tries of compressing/releasing the springs to get everything lined up correctly. The Stock boot/bellows also incluced the upper insulator, which has a nice 'hat' & groove setup for the spring to sit in and everything aligns nicely. Definitely worth the extra few buck - worth it for the nicer parts alone, but you will save time and frustration.
You also want the stock insulator because it is 1/4"~1/2" thicker than the KYB insulator, which means the rear sags about 1/4"~1/2" with the KYB insulator in vs. stock (bummed about this!!). The KYB front upper spring insulator is just fine.
The KYB boots/bellows are also fine for the front. The KYB boot/bellows come with bumpers (so the struts don't bottom out).
The old struts were definitely worn out (188,000 miles on them) - the car doesn't bounce anymore and floats over the bumps/dips.
Just thought I'd pass along those tidbits, as I wish I had come across them in my searching...
Last edited by mtnman82; 08-09-12 at 04:12 PM.
08-09-12, 09:05 PM
#11
OK, so I'm done putting the struts & stuff in and have a couple notes... I went with all KYB parts for the struts/mounts, and moog for the sway bar links/bushings.
First, the front KYB struts DO NOT come with the lower spring insulators (but the rears DO) so you'll need to order those (I wound up re-using my thrashed old ones becasue I didn't want to wait days to put things back together).
Also, you'll want to order the stock bellows/boot for the rear struts. I got by with the KYB, but they are no where near as nice and it took a few extra tries of compressing/releasing the springs to get everything lined up correctly. The Stock boot/bellows also incluced the upper insulator, which has a nice 'hat' & groove setup for the spring to sit in and everything aligns nicely. Definitely worth the extra few buck - worth it for the nicer parts alone, but you will save time and frustration.
You also want the stock insulator because it is 1/4"~1/2" thicker than the KYB insulator, which means the rear sags about 1/4"~1/2" with the KYB insulator in vs. stock (bummed about this!!). The KYB front upper spring insulator is just fine.
The KYB boots/bellows are also fine for the front. The KYB boot/bellows come with bumpers (so the struts don't bottom out).
The old struts were definitely worn out (188,000 miles on them) - the car doesn't bounce anymore and floats over the bumps/dips.
Just thought I'd pass along those tidbits, as I wish I had come across them in my searching...
First, the front KYB struts DO NOT come with the lower spring insulators (but the rears DO) so you'll need to order those (I wound up re-using my thrashed old ones becasue I didn't want to wait days to put things back together).
Also, you'll want to order the stock bellows/boot for the rear struts. I got by with the KYB, but they are no where near as nice and it took a few extra tries of compressing/releasing the springs to get everything lined up correctly. The Stock boot/bellows also incluced the upper insulator, which has a nice 'hat' & groove setup for the spring to sit in and everything aligns nicely. Definitely worth the extra few buck - worth it for the nicer parts alone, but you will save time and frustration.
You also want the stock insulator because it is 1/4"~1/2" thicker than the KYB insulator, which means the rear sags about 1/4"~1/2" with the KYB insulator in vs. stock (bummed about this!!). The KYB front upper spring insulator is just fine.
The KYB boots/bellows are also fine for the front. The KYB boot/bellows come with bumpers (so the struts don't bottom out).
The old struts were definitely worn out (188,000 miles on them) - the car doesn't bounce anymore and floats over the bumps/dips.
Just thought I'd pass along those tidbits, as I wish I had come across them in my searching...
08-11-12, 12:06 PM
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I'll post back when I ride in it again, but it honestly won't be for a while as my daughter is taking it off to school and it will probably be sitting most of the time (hopefully - she's in school and living in dorms, but they are off campus dorms).
I honestly searched and read quite a bit and read about inferior hardware making noises and such, but nothing about rear boot/bumper/spring seat or the KYB hardware making the rear sit a little lower.
I was dirving it around this morning again and am quite pleased with the ride. Yep, I kept the stock springs - she said she didn't want it lowered or a stiffer ride. I did use the polyurethane sway bar bushings instead of the rubber ones. Mind you I've done quite a few suspensions over the years and currently have a C class MB I've put a sport suspension on (Bilstein/H&R) and also a turbo S P-car, so I know what stiff / adjustable suspensions are all about. This rides as it should IMHO, as new - firm in a 'tight' way but nicely compliant over the dips/bumps. The only things I'd do different would be to order the stock rear upper insulator/boot/bumper and ordered front lower spring seat insulators.
Oh, and I didn't have to take apart the rear seat any more than taking the lower and upper cusions off - did NOT have to disassemble any of the rear shelf or seat belts, completely unecessary.
I bucked up for the KYB struts (vs. Gabriels, Monroes, etc) so I'm expecting them to last. Has there been a problem with them going bad prematurely???
I honestly searched and read quite a bit and read about inferior hardware making noises and such, but nothing about rear boot/bumper/spring seat or the KYB hardware making the rear sit a little lower.
I was dirving it around this morning again and am quite pleased with the ride. Yep, I kept the stock springs - she said she didn't want it lowered or a stiffer ride. I did use the polyurethane sway bar bushings instead of the rubber ones. Mind you I've done quite a few suspensions over the years and currently have a C class MB I've put a sport suspension on (Bilstein/H&R) and also a turbo S P-car, so I know what stiff / adjustable suspensions are all about. This rides as it should IMHO, as new - firm in a 'tight' way but nicely compliant over the dips/bumps. The only things I'd do different would be to order the stock rear upper insulator/boot/bumper and ordered front lower spring seat insulators.
Oh, and I didn't have to take apart the rear seat any more than taking the lower and upper cusions off - did NOT have to disassemble any of the rear shelf or seat belts, completely unecessary.
I bucked up for the KYB struts (vs. Gabriels, Monroes, etc) so I'm expecting them to last. Has there been a problem with them going bad prematurely???
Last edited by mtnman82; 08-11-12 at 12:15 PM.
08-11-12, 09:17 PM
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i haven't heard of anything going bad with the KYB struts. they make a real good replacement for OE if you ask me. i used to be a assistant manager for pepboys, and i can tell you its a good thing you stood away from the monroes. they are 100% pure GARBAGE, even the OEspetrum/SensaTracs. they can not handle anything other then grandma driving. we were constantly getting complaints and returns with them and the quick struts they made as well. so just for future reference to anyone reading this, stay away from the monore products
08-11-12, 09:21 PM
#14
I'll post back when I ride in it again, but it honestly won't be for a while as my daughter is taking it off to school and it will probably be sitting most of the time (hopefully - she's in school and living in dorms, but they are off campus dorms).
I honestly searched and read quite a bit and read about inferior hardware making noises and such, but nothing about rear boot/bumper/spring seat or the KYB hardware making the rear sit a little lower.
I was dirving it around this morning again and am quite pleased with the ride. Yep, I kept the stock springs - she said she didn't want it lowered or a stiffer ride. I did use the polyurethane sway bar bushings instead of the rubber ones. Mind you I've done quite a few suspensions over the years and currently have a C class MB I've put a sport suspension on (Bilstein/H&R) and also a turbo S P-car, so I know what stiff / adjustable suspensions are all about. This rides as it should IMHO, as new - firm in a 'tight' way but nicely compliant over the dips/bumps. The only things I'd do different would be to order the stock rear upper insulator/boot/bumper and ordered front lower spring seat insulators.
Oh, and I didn't have to take apart the rear seat any more than taking the lower and upper cusions off - did NOT have to disassemble any of the rear shelf or seat belts, completely unecessary.
I bucked up for the KYB struts (vs. Gabriels, Monroes, etc) so I'm expecting them to last. Has there been a problem with them going bad prematurely???
I honestly searched and read quite a bit and read about inferior hardware making noises and such, but nothing about rear boot/bumper/spring seat or the KYB hardware making the rear sit a little lower.
I was dirving it around this morning again and am quite pleased with the ride. Yep, I kept the stock springs - she said she didn't want it lowered or a stiffer ride. I did use the polyurethane sway bar bushings instead of the rubber ones. Mind you I've done quite a few suspensions over the years and currently have a C class MB I've put a sport suspension on (Bilstein/H&R) and also a turbo S P-car, so I know what stiff / adjustable suspensions are all about. This rides as it should IMHO, as new - firm in a 'tight' way but nicely compliant over the dips/bumps. The only things I'd do different would be to order the stock rear upper insulator/boot/bumper and ordered front lower spring seat insulators.
Oh, and I didn't have to take apart the rear seat any more than taking the lower and upper cusions off - did NOT have to disassemble any of the rear shelf or seat belts, completely unecessary.
I bucked up for the KYB struts (vs. Gabriels, Monroes, etc) so I'm expecting them to last. Has there been a problem with them going bad prematurely???
You have mentioned that the factory rear strut mounts are the way to go, but what is your honest opinion of the front? If you had the choice, would you go with OE?
08-12-12, 04:07 PM
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Just to be clear - you want the rear upper spring insulator, which includes the strut boot and the bumper. This will fit on the KYB mount hardware.
The KYB boot/bumper are fine for the front, and again the stock upper spring insulator includes the strut boot. There is no difference in thickness in the upper insulator pads in the front (oem vs KYB). You DO want to order the front lower insulators (just rubber pads) as they do not come with the KYB struts (but they do with the rears). The bumpers could have been re-used in the front again.
If I were to do it all over again, I'd buy all the KYB mounting hardware again along with the KYB struts, but only buy 2 boot/bumper sets (for the front), but the oem rear upper insulator/bumper/boots, and also buy some lower insulator pads for the front. The KYB mounting hardware is cheaper than OEM, and I wanted the mounting hardware to match the struts as much as possible - the shafts/nuts are different sizes oem vs. KYB and I wanted to make sure all the grooves/cutouts matched.
The KYB boot/bumper are fine for the front, and again the stock upper spring insulator includes the strut boot. There is no difference in thickness in the upper insulator pads in the front (oem vs KYB). You DO want to order the front lower insulators (just rubber pads) as they do not come with the KYB struts (but they do with the rears). The bumpers could have been re-used in the front again.
If I were to do it all over again, I'd buy all the KYB mounting hardware again along with the KYB struts, but only buy 2 boot/bumper sets (for the front), but the oem rear upper insulator/bumper/boots, and also buy some lower insulator pads for the front. The KYB mounting hardware is cheaper than OEM, and I wanted the mounting hardware to match the struts as much as possible - the shafts/nuts are different sizes oem vs. KYB and I wanted to make sure all the grooves/cutouts matched.