2ES Rear Suspension - Change to TRW/Moog Coils - Help Rear with Heavy Loads
05-27-09, 12:13 PM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
2ES Rear Suspension - Change to TRW/Moog Coils - Help Rear with Heavy Loads
slideshow:
http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...view=slideshow
So, I contacted advance auto parts to get the specs on the springs. They are variable rate, so i guess the spring rate is an average. They are listed as heavy duty ["hef-t"] in their description so they must be better than stock at handling load. They are available on amazon and other places as "Moog CC277 Cargo Coil Spring."
Like many of you guys I tend to use the car like a truck or travelling office. I have tons of stuff in the trunk and plan to tow with the car in the future. I decided to make my car happy and beef up the rear suspension. This would allow me to take on passengers with 150 lbs of stuff in the trunk without bottoming out.
Currently I have the follow parts:
-KYB Gr2 strut assembly [work very well. also side-benefit, the strut cartrige is replaceable, saving really about half the cost of a new strut assembly]
-OEM upper isolator [comes with integrated boot]
[When ordering I just told them Toyota Camry LE 3.0 hahaha]
-KYB Strut mount [horrible, advise to use OEM]
-OEM Lower Spring Seat / isolator
....and after a year of that crap unable to handle one large extra person in the car besides myself with stuff in the trunk as well.... a few weeks ago I:
-Installed new (weren't there - old ones rotted off!) bump stops from Monroe[were available in stock at local advance auto parts store]
[KYB are just as good]
-Installed new coil springs... Moog/TRW
[same exact thing, TRW part name is simply lower price! but the trw didnt come up on their screen , so they entered the part no cc277 manually and it gave them the choice between trw and moog... haha awesome tip I hope for you guys]
[Moog and TRW are coowned by Federal mogul corp, my box]
From advance auto parts customer support:
"
CC277- Bar Dia-.546, installed height-9.50, load- 522 lbs, spring rate lbs-133, free height- 13.80
9640- Bar dia- .593, installed height- 8.00, load lbs- 1002, spring rate lbs=141, free height- 15.08
TRW same specs.
"
Commentary:
I played around with the two coils and found the OEM is dramatically more variable rate than the trw coil. The oem is probably fine for most people as long as you have good struts and lower isolator and strut mount and don't have heavy loads. Usually they last a long time [life of the car]. Mine had hardly any rust at all and were in great condition but I sensed they were a little worn out from the prev owner towing a bot over a thousand miles to, and then from his destination during vacations[couple years]... plus it's from 1993 and this is 2008 and 2009 that I get the car and notice it's probably so: 15 yrs and abuse... still, If I had had the bump stops (also called jounce stops) installed I probably would have has less-severe bottoming-out ... but still I have a lot in the trunk and have bigger than average [from 1993's perspective] acquantences and tend to load the car on back, dirt roads... so a newer, firmer coil did the trick. Now unlike most of you guys, my back end doesn't appear to sag even with stuff in the trunk! lol you know what I'm talking about, almost all of the es 300 do it.
lol
My es 300 is getting old but after some plastic surgery no longer sags!
Recently, I had enough weight in terms of very large passengers , thank God for only a short trip due to how they barely fit back there, who brough the passenger weight to approximately 100 lbs over the max weight stated in the car's specifications [about 1050 lbs total] .... and it never bottomed out in the back and was actually nice ride. For some, what I just said struck home and raised a light bulb above their head. Yes, you are in the same boat I was in.
If your car doesn't handle loads even half this , as well, and you have your bump stops still, and good struts please, try the coils and chime in here, or if you have anything else, of course .....
http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...view=slideshow
So, I contacted advance auto parts to get the specs on the springs. They are variable rate, so i guess the spring rate is an average. They are listed as heavy duty ["hef-t"] in their description so they must be better than stock at handling load. They are available on amazon and other places as "Moog CC277 Cargo Coil Spring."
Like many of you guys I tend to use the car like a truck or travelling office. I have tons of stuff in the trunk and plan to tow with the car in the future. I decided to make my car happy and beef up the rear suspension. This would allow me to take on passengers with 150 lbs of stuff in the trunk without bottoming out.
Currently I have the follow parts:
-KYB Gr2 strut assembly [work very well. also side-benefit, the strut cartrige is replaceable, saving really about half the cost of a new strut assembly]
-OEM upper isolator [comes with integrated boot]
[When ordering I just told them Toyota Camry LE 3.0 hahaha]
-KYB Strut mount [horrible, advise to use OEM]
-OEM Lower Spring Seat / isolator
....and after a year of that crap unable to handle one large extra person in the car besides myself with stuff in the trunk as well.... a few weeks ago I:
-Installed new (weren't there - old ones rotted off!) bump stops from Monroe[were available in stock at local advance auto parts store]
[KYB are just as good]
-Installed new coil springs... Moog/TRW
[same exact thing, TRW part name is simply lower price! but the trw didnt come up on their screen , so they entered the part no cc277 manually and it gave them the choice between trw and moog... haha awesome tip I hope for you guys]
[Moog and TRW are coowned by Federal mogul corp, my box]
From advance auto parts customer support:
"
CC277- Bar Dia-.546, installed height-9.50, load- 522 lbs, spring rate lbs-133, free height- 13.80
9640- Bar dia- .593, installed height- 8.00, load lbs- 1002, spring rate lbs=141, free height- 15.08
TRW same specs.
"
Commentary:
I played around with the two coils and found the OEM is dramatically more variable rate than the trw coil. The oem is probably fine for most people as long as you have good struts and lower isolator and strut mount and don't have heavy loads. Usually they last a long time [life of the car]. Mine had hardly any rust at all and were in great condition but I sensed they were a little worn out from the prev owner towing a bot over a thousand miles to, and then from his destination during vacations[couple years]... plus it's from 1993 and this is 2008 and 2009 that I get the car and notice it's probably so: 15 yrs and abuse... still, If I had had the bump stops (also called jounce stops) installed I probably would have has less-severe bottoming-out ... but still I have a lot in the trunk and have bigger than average [from 1993's perspective] acquantences and tend to load the car on back, dirt roads... so a newer, firmer coil did the trick. Now unlike most of you guys, my back end doesn't appear to sag even with stuff in the trunk! lol you know what I'm talking about, almost all of the es 300 do it.
lol
My es 300 is getting old but after some plastic surgery no longer sags!
Recently, I had enough weight in terms of very large passengers , thank God for only a short trip due to how they barely fit back there, who brough the passenger weight to approximately 100 lbs over the max weight stated in the car's specifications [about 1050 lbs total] .... and it never bottomed out in the back and was actually nice ride. For some, what I just said struck home and raised a light bulb above their head. Yes, you are in the same boat I was in.
If your car doesn't handle loads even half this , as well, and you have your bump stops still, and good struts please, try the coils and chime in here, or if you have anything else, of course .....
Last edited by llcoolpass; 05-27-09 at 12:17 PM.
05-27-09, 12:18 PM
#2
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
oh yeah, the 9640 part no is the front coil springs, which I didn't install. again, CC277 is the rear. I don't have plans to change the front coils.
Technically, these coils would also work in 3ES as well, but I'm not sure if there is an even better choice. Technically, the 1992 and 1993 ES 300 is heaviest ES 300 of them all so it couldn't hurt. Check the part catalog online to see what it recommends, first.
Technically, these coils would also work in 3ES as well, but I'm not sure if there is an even better choice. Technically, the 1992 and 1993 ES 300 is heaviest ES 300 of them all so it couldn't hurt. Check the part catalog online to see what it recommends, first.
Last edited by llcoolpass; 05-27-09 at 12:22 PM.
05-27-09, 01:45 PM
#3
Good write-up on the suspension llcoolpass. My front struts are bad and fluid was found inside the fender splash shields. I know they are serviceable on the fronts (uses cartridge inserts but does the rears also do too? The rears are not oem for some reason and my fronts are oem toyota struts.
My plan is to replace the struts with KYB or tokico hp inserts or full assemblies, all new toyota oem mounting hardware, and a good suitable lowering springs (maybe eibach or TRD Japan springs for the windom) along with the trd sway bar form the solara i just ordered a week ago. will also get new bushings as well.
My plan is to replace the struts with KYB or tokico hp inserts or full assemblies, all new toyota oem mounting hardware, and a good suitable lowering springs (maybe eibach or TRD Japan springs for the windom) along with the trd sway bar form the solara i just ordered a week ago. will also get new bushings as well.
05-27-09, 03:48 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Thanks. Those front struts need to be addressed immediately. It's good you caught that. My rear did that to me right after I got the car in dec 07, little puddle on the ground. I noticed it right away, thank goodness. Thought it was brake fluid at first... but then i touched it and the color was wrong...
If it's really, trully an OEM strut, it was supposed to come with replacable cartridge design for all 4 of them, for model years 1992 and 1993 -- up to certain production date or production number for 1994s -- from what I've learned on this site.
I don't know if KYB or Tokico inserts will replace OEM inserts properly or well or anything, but, if it were my car, I would definitely try it [can always return the inserts and order the full thing if it came to that] -- unless my strut assm. was all rusty or had an issue. Something to consider, you know? Since it gets rusty and weakens with fatigue. There may be rust you don't see, in particular where the lower spring seat area is.
I didn't know there was a lowering option from the factory for windoms. But, if it were up to me, if you must get lowering springs, then I would do basically what youre saying, the KYB strut is supposed to be able to handle the modest drop of the Eibachs.
What bushings in particular were you referring to... or was that short for mounts, and upper / lower spring isolators ?
Are you doing the work yourself?
edit: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3302985/2 and my memory of what your job is tell me you are probably doing it yourself. i also noted some things you said on the cardomain. i have a tip for you, well, one really big one: inspect the master cylinder for the clutch hydraulics. see if it's all yuky. apparently, no joke, my clutch fluid was never changed and broke down / gelled/ sludged up. I did a gravity bleed using the little pint bottle's worth of brake fluid, and when it would get low while draining I carefully took papertowls, multiple times, and grab/wiped the stuff out. I did the gravity bleed from the slave cylinder. Vastly improved the shifting. Now, my shifter bushings at the transmission are pretty worn out [wobble the shifter left and right while in gear], but that is not a big deal. Grinded gears a lot [for an expert] before -- never since.
If it's really, trully an OEM strut, it was supposed to come with replacable cartridge design for all 4 of them, for model years 1992 and 1993 -- up to certain production date or production number for 1994s -- from what I've learned on this site.
I don't know if KYB or Tokico inserts will replace OEM inserts properly or well or anything, but, if it were my car, I would definitely try it [can always return the inserts and order the full thing if it came to that] -- unless my strut assm. was all rusty or had an issue. Something to consider, you know? Since it gets rusty and weakens with fatigue. There may be rust you don't see, in particular where the lower spring seat area is.
I didn't know there was a lowering option from the factory for windoms. But, if it were up to me, if you must get lowering springs, then I would do basically what youre saying, the KYB strut is supposed to be able to handle the modest drop of the Eibachs.
What bushings in particular were you referring to... or was that short for mounts, and upper / lower spring isolators ?
Are you doing the work yourself?
edit: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3302985/2 and my memory of what your job is tell me you are probably doing it yourself. i also noted some things you said on the cardomain. i have a tip for you, well, one really big one: inspect the master cylinder for the clutch hydraulics. see if it's all yuky. apparently, no joke, my clutch fluid was never changed and broke down / gelled/ sludged up. I did a gravity bleed using the little pint bottle's worth of brake fluid, and when it would get low while draining I carefully took papertowls, multiple times, and grab/wiped the stuff out. I did the gravity bleed from the slave cylinder. Vastly improved the shifting. Now, my shifter bushings at the transmission are pretty worn out [wobble the shifter left and right while in gear], but that is not a big deal. Grinded gears a lot [for an expert] before -- never since.
Last edited by llcoolpass; 05-27-09 at 04:20 PM.
05-27-09, 04:14 PM
#6
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
lowering it a lot won't help the handling that's what I have to say... so the eibach would be the best...but ummm... yeah... stay on target, stay on target [not "performance" oriented thread]
Last edited by llcoolpass; 05-27-09 at 04:17 PM.
05-27-09, 04:20 PM
#7
Im doing the upper and lower isolators or cushions as well as new strut mounting plates. The bushings that are also bad is the front sway bar and control arm bushings. I'm planning to get the energy suspension polyurethane units from the 97-01 camry since their suspension is very similar to our cars.
I'm gonna do all the work on my 2ES and look for used rear serviceable oem toyota struts so I can put new inserts on them and have the struts fully assembled with the other parts listed for a direct swap or buy a whole new strut assembly for the front and rears.
Not gonna lower it alot since I also carry weight on the back like ppl and not want to rub either. I'm pretty sure it'll turn out nice and handle much better since i do alot of cornering without sacrificing confort. Lotta things to do with my car since it got 216k miles and cant wait 'til I finish this project.
I'm gonna do all the work on my 2ES and look for used rear serviceable oem toyota struts so I can put new inserts on them and have the struts fully assembled with the other parts listed for a direct swap or buy a whole new strut assembly for the front and rears.
Not gonna lower it alot since I also carry weight on the back like ppl and not want to rub either. I'm pretty sure it'll turn out nice and handle much better since i do alot of cornering without sacrificing confort. Lotta things to do with my car since it got 216k miles and cant wait 'til I finish this project.
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05-27-09, 04:33 PM
#9
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
my handling [subjective] is a little bit better with these springs. I tend not to need to push the car from side to side as much as I go fast 
when I'm on the highway (sometimes .... 
haha).
my ride quality didn't go down, and I verified the rear ride quality with several people who were in back before and after and if anything they liked it more after [no bottoming out] but that the ride quality was if anything not worse [ignoring the bottoming out for comparison]
skidpad g's [objective] ... who the f knows... probably about the same as the car when it was new.
eyezack87, this car is not anything close to being an SUV in ride height.... it's actually in the low car category [I speak for second gens].
when I'm on the highway (sometimes .... haha).my ride quality didn't go down, and I verified the rear ride quality with several people who were in back before and after and if anything they liked it more after [no bottoming out] but that the ride quality was if anything not worse [ignoring the bottoming out for comparison]
skidpad g's [objective] ... who the f knows... probably about the same as the car when it was new.
eyezack87, this car is not anything close to being an SUV in ride height.... it's actually in the low car category [I speak for second gens].
Last edited by llcoolpass; 05-27-09 at 04:38 PM.
05-28-09, 02:11 AM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
llcool funny you say the KYB mounts are horrible; agree whole heartedly. Mine are already knocking like mad (rear only). Very few gen 2s arent saggy in the rear; so im sure it looks sweet
05-28-09, 07:49 AM
#12
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
funny thing is, even with the stuff in the trunk it seems slightly higher
mine are knocking already... worse than before... necessitating removing the seat to tighten those nuts... but my fix is going to be to put grade 8.8 [nice ones] washers under the nuts...i think they dig into the body and paint losing their tightness and that washers will solve it
mine are knocking already... worse than before... necessitating removing the seat to tighten those nuts... but my fix is going to be to put grade 8.8 [nice ones] washers under the nuts...i think they dig into the body and paint losing their tightness and that washers will solve it
05-30-09, 04:25 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
it's not the mounts! i found what was clunking... please guys you may have the same problem so check this out,
its that stupid thing that adjusts the brake pressure
its what is clunking
not the sway bar , links, suspension, is that stupid thing... now i gotta figure why other than I suspect that with the better springs, the device is at it's longest travel and has more play now ... and with newer, better spring seats originally, it was starting to make more noise, and now that my ride height is even higher, it's real bad.........
understand?
it's the simplest things... what waste of time that was taking the seat out and putting washers under the nuts.... although I do have the ansewr now, so the effort got me somewhere
its that stupid thing that adjusts the brake pressure
its what is clunking
not the sway bar , links, suspension, is that stupid thing... now i gotta figure why other than I suspect that with the better springs, the device is at it's longest travel and has more play now ... and with newer, better spring seats originally, it was starting to make more noise, and now that my ride height is even higher, it's real bad.........
understand?
it's the simplest things... what waste of time that was taking the seat out and putting washers under the nuts.... although I do have the ansewr now, so the effort got me somewhere
05-30-09, 04:47 PM
#14
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
oh god... the whole thing is calibrated , and calibrated with the stock springs in mind.... LLAAMMMEEE
well, for models that dont have this stupid LSPV the springs shld bring no annoyances... but ES300 that have the LSPV.... you might consider this thing...
I'm working on the solution right now.... apparently there is adjustment... but I don't want it to be poorly adjusted so that's the parts I'm trying to find a decent solution to ....
used to think this thing was cool... now I'm angry at it
well, for models that dont have this stupid LSPV the springs shld bring no annoyances... but ES300 that have the LSPV.... you might consider this thing...
I'm working on the solution right now.... apparently there is adjustment... but I don't want it to be poorly adjusted so that's the parts I'm trying to find a decent solution to ....
used to think this thing was cool... now I'm angry at it
Last edited by llcoolpass; 05-30-09 at 04:55 PM.
05-30-09, 08:14 PM
#15
LMAO! I guess you've now inadvertently answered my question from September about that lovely device. Ironic since JeffTsai (CL GS guru) just answered it about 2 nights ago in my garage, but now you've confirmed it and given it a name.
You're werkin' your **** off on this one! Keep up the good work! .
You're werkin' your **** off on this one! Keep up the good work! .
Last edited by Slooooooow; 06-01-09 at 07:28 PM.