Is Lexus Heading Down?
11-02-01, 10:59 AM
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Is Lexus Heading Down?
Is Lexus heading downhill? That is the question.
I ask this because the new ES300 as well as IS300 have alot of shortcomings. Shortcomings as apparent as on these 2 cars were not there on earlier generation Lexus models.
The 1st generation LS400's only real shortcoming was it's exterior style and some said "too soft" ride.
The 1st generation SC300/400 had no real shortcomings whatsoever.
The 1st generation GS300 had really no shortcomings at the time of it's introduction. It's only after a few years on the market that it's shortcomings-of power and price-came shining thru.
The 1st and 2nd generation ES300's had no real shortcomings except for some said the Camry foundation and cushy ride. but the 1st generation ES300 had great transmissions and class leading horsepower.
Now look at some recent Lexus offerings:
The 2001 IS300. Lexus brought this to market with no manual transmission-considering Lexus aimed it DIRECTLY at the 3-series crowd-and it's interior is remarkably downmarket for a car costing $35K. Not to mention it gets terrible gas mileage for a car of it's size, does not have class leading feature content, and is not as quick as it should be in a straight line. Question to Lexus: WHAT HAPPENED?
The 2002 ES300: I dig the styling, I dig the interior, but where are the standard HID headlights and standard 6CD-changer?? These things I expect to be standard today for $32K, considering they are standard in the IS300 as well as Acura 3.2TL. Also, where has that Lexus hallmark of a "smooth-best in class auto transmission" gone???? And where is that class leading Horsepower??? Sorry Lexus. 210bhp just doesn't cut it when cars you are DIRECTLY competing against have more, alot more; Infiniti I35: 255bhp, Acura 3.2TL 225bhp.
The 2002 Lexus SC430: I hear it's excellent, but I also hear it's styling is polarizing. Everyone thought the original SC300/400 was gorgeous. And I hear some owner's have complaints about rattles and squeaks!! That's not what a LEXUS is supposed to be.
The 2001 Lexus LS430: You would think after 11years on the market, the LS would get it's own styling going. The 1998-2000 model moved away from the "benz-wannabe styling"-and I liked it. And then Lexus digresses for 2001 and copies a Benz body style that went out of production in 1998! The LS430 was definately class-leading in 2001 when it came out in terms of price, but it is soon easily going to be outdone by the 2003 BMW 7-series in terms of performance, technology, and luxury. You remember the 1990 LS400 vs. 7-series? The LS400 stayed ahead of the 7-series from 1990 to 1994. Not so with this incarnation of the LS430.
WHAT'S WRONG, LEXUS?????
I ask this because the new ES300 as well as IS300 have alot of shortcomings. Shortcomings as apparent as on these 2 cars were not there on earlier generation Lexus models.
The 1st generation LS400's only real shortcoming was it's exterior style and some said "too soft" ride.
The 1st generation SC300/400 had no real shortcomings whatsoever.
The 1st generation GS300 had really no shortcomings at the time of it's introduction. It's only after a few years on the market that it's shortcomings-of power and price-came shining thru.
The 1st and 2nd generation ES300's had no real shortcomings except for some said the Camry foundation and cushy ride. but the 1st generation ES300 had great transmissions and class leading horsepower.
Now look at some recent Lexus offerings:
The 2001 IS300. Lexus brought this to market with no manual transmission-considering Lexus aimed it DIRECTLY at the 3-series crowd-and it's interior is remarkably downmarket for a car costing $35K. Not to mention it gets terrible gas mileage for a car of it's size, does not have class leading feature content, and is not as quick as it should be in a straight line. Question to Lexus: WHAT HAPPENED?
The 2002 ES300: I dig the styling, I dig the interior, but where are the standard HID headlights and standard 6CD-changer?? These things I expect to be standard today for $32K, considering they are standard in the IS300 as well as Acura 3.2TL. Also, where has that Lexus hallmark of a "smooth-best in class auto transmission" gone???? And where is that class leading Horsepower??? Sorry Lexus. 210bhp just doesn't cut it when cars you are DIRECTLY competing against have more, alot more; Infiniti I35: 255bhp, Acura 3.2TL 225bhp.
The 2002 Lexus SC430: I hear it's excellent, but I also hear it's styling is polarizing. Everyone thought the original SC300/400 was gorgeous. And I hear some owner's have complaints about rattles and squeaks!! That's not what a LEXUS is supposed to be.
The 2001 Lexus LS430: You would think after 11years on the market, the LS would get it's own styling going. The 1998-2000 model moved away from the "benz-wannabe styling"-and I liked it. And then Lexus digresses for 2001 and copies a Benz body style that went out of production in 1998! The LS430 was definately class-leading in 2001 when it came out in terms of price, but it is soon easily going to be outdone by the 2003 BMW 7-series in terms of performance, technology, and luxury. You remember the 1990 LS400 vs. 7-series? The LS400 stayed ahead of the 7-series from 1990 to 1994. Not so with this incarnation of the LS430.
WHAT'S WRONG, LEXUS?????
11-02-01, 11:02 AM
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I forgot to mention I recently test drove both the 2002 ES300 and 2002 LS430. The ES300 really let me down. Looks great inside & out, but the price with features coupled with it's stinkin' transmission and merely 'adequate' acceleration really let me down. My 1995 ES300 feels quicker!
The LS430 was a truly enjoyable drive, but the doors do not feel as solid as on my 2000, the acceleration is nothing special and it looks god darn awful, outside.
The LS430 was a truly enjoyable drive, but the doors do not feel as solid as on my 2000, the acceleration is nothing special and it looks god darn awful, outside.
11-02-01, 06:35 PM
#3
well i think that lexus will always be solid classy quality cars, they will have there ups and down with styling and performance like any one, but over all driving a lexus will always feel like driving a quality matchine. I also agree that lexus is lacking in a few areas more then usual. I dont like how huge and fat the ES 300 looks in comparison to the modles in 92-2001. The car looks to big for the wheels, the rims look sunk into the car and to small for the for it. The car looks soft and weak with not swift and sharp. But i do like the car, overall i think its a quality car. With modification it would fulfill my needs like a nice body kit. If they make enough stuff for the new ES it will be an awesome ride, like lights and body kits, the LS430 looks awesome hooked up in japan!!!
11-02-01, 08:21 PM
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Skinny: I think you're wrong.
I test drove the '02 ES300. I don't know what you're talking about.
I had an IS as a loaner this Wednesday and Thursday. I still don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I think the LS looks gorgeous, but that's subjective. Same for the SC and all other Lexus cars.
Don't EVEN get me started about the GS line...
Um, where did you read that the '03 7-series will have better performance than the LS43? The 0-60 of the '03 744i is about 6.3 seconds, which puts the LS43 and the 744i neck-and-neck. The 744i will handle better, but the LS wasn't designed to be a sports car. And when was the last time Benz or BMW out-did the LS in luxury? And what good is all that German technology if it's constantly breaking? Does the LS43 really need any of that German-techno crap? Do you need it?
Oh yeah, the ES wasn't designed to be a sports car, so enough with the troll-like whining about its performance. The I35 and TL-S are wannabe sports cars anyway.
One more thing: Your '95 ES3 might "feel" quicker than the '02 ES3 (
), but it's not.
There's nothing wrong with Lexus. However, there seems to be something wrong with your PERCEPTION of Lexus...
I test drove the '02 ES300. I don't know what you're talking about.
I had an IS as a loaner this Wednesday and Thursday. I still don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I think the LS looks gorgeous, but that's subjective. Same for the SC and all other Lexus cars.
Don't EVEN get me started about the GS line...
Um, where did you read that the '03 7-series will have better performance than the LS43? The 0-60 of the '03 744i is about 6.3 seconds, which puts the LS43 and the 744i neck-and-neck. The 744i will handle better, but the LS wasn't designed to be a sports car. And when was the last time Benz or BMW out-did the LS in luxury? And what good is all that German technology if it's constantly breaking? Does the LS43 really need any of that German-techno crap? Do you need it?
Oh yeah, the ES wasn't designed to be a sports car, so enough with the troll-like whining about its performance. The I35 and TL-S are wannabe sports cars anyway.
One more thing: Your '95 ES3 might "feel" quicker than the '02 ES3 (
), but it's not.There's nothing wrong with Lexus. However, there seems to be something wrong with your PERCEPTION of Lexus...
11-03-01, 01:14 PM
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I agree with you Wantanewlex, like i said, you just get a diferent feel when you drive a lexus, new or old. I love lexus as a whole, although i do have some things i wish could be different or modified, but like i said, hopfully bolt on mods will be made for the ES and we won't be complaining any more, because if i remember correctly you were also complaining about the in the begining ES? But i think that it is a solid car and is a good platform for mods like the is, sc or gs, things just have to made for it, like the body kits and superchagers and turbos and cams gears and pullies and stuff. But if you put a gun to my head and told me to say that another car is beter then lexus as far as overall value, quality and realiabilty I would have to stick to my heart and say lexus is the best regardless! "Lexus till I die"
11-03-01, 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by L_Sport
I agree with you Wantanewlex, like i said, you just get a diferent feel when you drive a lexus, new or old. I love lexus as a whole, although i do have some things i wish could be different or modified, but like i said, hopfully bolt on mods will be made for the ES and we won't be complaining any more, because if i remember correctly you were also complaining about the in the begining ES? But i think that it is a solid car and is a good platform for mods like the is, sc or gs, things just have to made for it, like the body kits and superchagers and turbos and cams gears and pullies and stuff. But if you put a gun to my head and told me to say that another car is beter then lexus as far as overall value, quality and realiabilty I would have to stick to my heart and say lexus is the best regardless! "Lexus till I die"
I agree with you Wantanewlex, like i said, you just get a diferent feel when you drive a lexus, new or old. I love lexus as a whole, although i do have some things i wish could be different or modified, but like i said, hopfully bolt on mods will be made for the ES and we won't be complaining any more, because if i remember correctly you were also complaining about the in the begining ES? But i think that it is a solid car and is a good platform for mods like the is, sc or gs, things just have to made for it, like the body kits and superchagers and turbos and cams gears and pullies and stuff. But if you put a gun to my head and told me to say that another car is beter then lexus as far as overall value, quality and realiabilty I would have to stick to my heart and say lexus is the best regardless! "Lexus till I die"
Last edited by SecPole14; 11-03-01 at 02:02 PM.
11-05-01, 11:28 AM
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wannanewlex,
I think you're reading my post all wrong.
I think the 2002 ES300 is great just lacking in a few key areas which the competition isn't lacking in. The new ES300 is slooow. 8.2 seconds to 60? Come on. Don't try and tell me that is quick. My 1995 ES300 did 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. The 2002 ES300 is almost a decade ahead in terms of technology, and it should be quicker, and on par with the 3.2TL and I35, which are both alot quicker. I don't really mind the handling of the 2002 ES300, because Lexus aims for the luxury car crowd and hits the mark with just about every car.
Where did I read the 7-series will have better performance? Huh. 6-speed automatic, 330bhp(approx.), latest in active suspension technology and it is a BMW. My friend, let me tell you, performance is more than just 0-60 numbers. performance is braking, acceleration, & most importantly, handling.
It seems you're really touchy when it comes to Lexus. I own 2 Lexus' as you might have read on the side post. And I will continue to buy Lexus. Even though the LS430 may be ugly, even IMO, I would still buy it over a 7-series because of legendary Lexus quality & reliability, & luxury. The German cars just aren't my cup of tea. But I am merely pointing Lexus has been slipping slightly of late. Ultimately, I would love to see Lexus quality, reliability, & luxury continue with touches of BMW thrown in, and styling that can be considered "purely" Lexus instead of a collage of Mercedes & Toyota styling cues.
I think you're reading my post all wrong.
I think the 2002 ES300 is great just lacking in a few key areas which the competition isn't lacking in. The new ES300 is slooow. 8.2 seconds to 60? Come on. Don't try and tell me that is quick. My 1995 ES300 did 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. The 2002 ES300 is almost a decade ahead in terms of technology, and it should be quicker, and on par with the 3.2TL and I35, which are both alot quicker. I don't really mind the handling of the 2002 ES300, because Lexus aims for the luxury car crowd and hits the mark with just about every car.
Where did I read the 7-series will have better performance? Huh. 6-speed automatic, 330bhp(approx.), latest in active suspension technology and it is a BMW. My friend, let me tell you, performance is more than just 0-60 numbers. performance is braking, acceleration, & most importantly, handling.
It seems you're really touchy when it comes to Lexus. I own 2 Lexus' as you might have read on the side post. And I will continue to buy Lexus. Even though the LS430 may be ugly, even IMO, I would still buy it over a 7-series because of legendary Lexus quality & reliability, & luxury. The German cars just aren't my cup of tea. But I am merely pointing Lexus has been slipping slightly of late. Ultimately, I would love to see Lexus quality, reliability, & luxury continue with touches of BMW thrown in, and styling that can be considered "purely" Lexus instead of a collage of Mercedes & Toyota styling cues.
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11-05-01, 11:32 AM
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"One more thing: Your '95 ES3 might "feel" quicker than the '02 ES3 ( ), but it's not. "
I think your perception is twisted. I say to you go to your local library pull a magazine issues from late 1994 to 1996 and see what the ES300 got in 0-60 & 1/4 mile from the 3.0L 188 horse motor and then pull a 2001 magazine and see what the 2002 ES300 gets 0-60 & 1/4 mile.
I know Car and Driver got 8.2 0-60 with a 1995 ES300 and I know a magazine recently got 8.2 0-60 with the 2002 ES300.
And I know Lexus has a 2 pronged attack going with the ES300 and IS300, but have you forgotten about progress & keeping up with competition? having the same performance figures in a car almost a decade ahead in technology is in-excusable.
I think your perception is twisted. I say to you go to your local library pull a magazine issues from late 1994 to 1996 and see what the ES300 got in 0-60 & 1/4 mile from the 3.0L 188 horse motor and then pull a 2001 magazine and see what the 2002 ES300 gets 0-60 & 1/4 mile.
I know Car and Driver got 8.2 0-60 with a 1995 ES300 and I know a magazine recently got 8.2 0-60 with the 2002 ES300.
And I know Lexus has a 2 pronged attack going with the ES300 and IS300, but have you forgotten about progress & keeping up with competition? having the same performance figures in a car almost a decade ahead in technology is in-excusable.
11-05-01, 01:44 PM
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Lexus is the best selling luxury brand. "we" are not.
And BMW is about even Lexus thru October of this year in sales figures.
ANd I was not comparing Lexus to Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac. I agree all those car makers are not on the same level as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes-Benz.
Which Benz looks like a Lexus? It's more like some Lexus models look like Benz models. Prime example: LS430.
As far as features go, Lexus is typically behind the curve. Mercedes & BMW typically come out with alot of features before Lexus does. Some examples: Side airbags, BMW had them first, Benz second, Lexus third.
curtain airbags: BMW first, Benz Second, Lexus third.
Park Distance control: BMW & Benz before Lexus. Lexus finally gets it on the LS430 for 2001. Meanwhile 5-series & E-class have it but GS300/430 still doesn't.
Rainsense wipers: Mercedes has had them since 1996 or 1997. Lexus finally got them in 2001 on the LS430.
HID lights: BMW had them first in the US market. Benz had them second, and then Lexus came out with them.
And BMW is about even Lexus thru October of this year in sales figures.
ANd I was not comparing Lexus to Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac. I agree all those car makers are not on the same level as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes-Benz.
Which Benz looks like a Lexus? It's more like some Lexus models look like Benz models. Prime example: LS430.
As far as features go, Lexus is typically behind the curve. Mercedes & BMW typically come out with alot of features before Lexus does. Some examples: Side airbags, BMW had them first, Benz second, Lexus third.
curtain airbags: BMW first, Benz Second, Lexus third.
Park Distance control: BMW & Benz before Lexus. Lexus finally gets it on the LS430 for 2001. Meanwhile 5-series & E-class have it but GS300/430 still doesn't.
Rainsense wipers: Mercedes has had them since 1996 or 1997. Lexus finally got them in 2001 on the LS430.
HID lights: BMW had them first in the US market. Benz had them second, and then Lexus came out with them.
11-05-01, 02:34 PM
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Two words...Lexus Sucks (J/K Sick). No, but seriously, these arguments make me laugh. I enjoy being on this forum/site, but I don't believe that Lexus is the best car brand in the world, even though I own one. This just reminds me of some rednecks arguing over what's better....Ford or Chevy? Well, except with more intelligent conversation. 
(My 2 cents)
(My 2 cents)
11-05-01, 05:49 PM
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Ok here is what I think Sir Skinny. I personally love the entire lexus line, some people have different opinions but everyone has a different opinion on things. You cannot say everyone you talk to loves the entire mercedez-benz line(too many cars to list :eek: ), or the BMW line, and definately not the infinity line. By the way Lexus sells more RX300's than Infinity sells their entire line. Yes congrats to the germans for coming out with side airbags, and curtain airbags first. While they are concentrating on being the first to come out with something Lexus is getting "Most Reliable Vehicles from JD Power" years and years in a row. When you find your "powerful" BMW and mercedez engines lasting over 100,000 miles without $10,000 in maintnence then you can talk. Lexus is not just performance but they also concentrate on getting the car to last. Because for over $35,000 as you said, shouldnt your car last longer than 3 years? Lastly, your little magazine tests are not accurate, as every magazine i read has a different statistic for every car(depends on weather conditions, road, driver, etc). And the new ES300 has a 5-speed automatic, putting it ahead of your 95 ES. and The SC430 is obviously liked by many because you can go to the Lexus Dealer and find "USED" ones going for $80,000, as I did this weekend. And when BMW and Mercedes get a 4-door "luxury" sedan under $50k to do 0-60 in under 6seconds, then they can talk about those big performance numbers. Enough said, Lexus is truly the best overall luxury company, and they will stay that way for years to come.
11-07-01, 08:49 AM
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"Quite #$%^&* frankly I did not need any airbags period (no accidents) I dont need rain sensing wipers, brake assist (I have feet), massagins seats, 500 way power seats (ala bmw/benz) or all those extra buttons to distract me on the dash or push the stick price up for what I think is bull***** on a car. "
So, why buy a Lexus either? Even the ES300 has had brake assist for a few years. As well as the LS430 has massaging seats. And a Lexus has plenty of excess features to begin with. So why do you drive one? You can buy a Hyundai and save $20K and get a car with out all the B.S. you talk about.
The first generation LS400 was a block also, with heavily derived styling from guess what?: The Mercedes S-class of it's day.
So, why buy a Lexus either? Even the ES300 has had brake assist for a few years. As well as the LS430 has massaging seats. And a Lexus has plenty of excess features to begin with. So why do you drive one? You can buy a Hyundai and save $20K and get a car with out all the B.S. you talk about.
The first generation LS400 was a block also, with heavily derived styling from guess what?: The Mercedes S-class of it's day.
11-07-01, 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by supwithyou
Ok here is what I think Sir Skinny. I personally love the entire lexus line, some people have different opinions but everyone has a different opinion on things. You cannot say everyone you talk to loves the entire mercedez-benz line(too many cars to list :eek: ), or the BMW line, and definately not the infinity line. By the way Lexus sells more RX300's than Infinity sells their entire line. Yes congrats to the germans for coming out with side airbags, and curtain airbags first. While they are concentrating on being the first to come out with something Lexus is getting "Most Reliable Vehicles from JD Power" years and years in a row. When you find your "powerful" BMW and mercedez engines lasting over 100,000 miles without $10,000 in maintnence then you can talk. Lexus is not just performance but they also concentrate on getting the car to last. Because for over $35,000 as you said, shouldnt your car last longer than 3 years? Lastly, your little magazine tests are not accurate, as every magazine i read has a different statistic for every car(depends on weather conditions, road, driver, etc). And the new ES300 has a 5-speed automatic, putting it ahead of your 95 ES. and The SC430 is obviously liked by many because you can go to the Lexus Dealer and find "USED" ones going for $80,000, as I did this weekend. And when BMW and Mercedes get a 4-door "luxury" sedan under $50k to do 0-60 in under 6seconds, then they can talk about those big performance numbers. Enough said, Lexus is truly the best overall luxury company, and they will stay that way for years to come.
Ok here is what I think Sir Skinny. I personally love the entire lexus line, some people have different opinions but everyone has a different opinion on things. You cannot say everyone you talk to loves the entire mercedez-benz line(too many cars to list :eek: ), or the BMW line, and definately not the infinity line. By the way Lexus sells more RX300's than Infinity sells their entire line. Yes congrats to the germans for coming out with side airbags, and curtain airbags first. While they are concentrating on being the first to come out with something Lexus is getting "Most Reliable Vehicles from JD Power" years and years in a row. When you find your "powerful" BMW and mercedez engines lasting over 100,000 miles without $10,000 in maintnence then you can talk. Lexus is not just performance but they also concentrate on getting the car to last. Because for over $35,000 as you said, shouldnt your car last longer than 3 years? Lastly, your little magazine tests are not accurate, as every magazine i read has a different statistic for every car(depends on weather conditions, road, driver, etc). And the new ES300 has a 5-speed automatic, putting it ahead of your 95 ES. and The SC430 is obviously liked by many because you can go to the Lexus Dealer and find "USED" ones going for $80,000, as I did this weekend. And when BMW and Mercedes get a 4-door "luxury" sedan under $50k to do 0-60 in under 6seconds, then they can talk about those big performance numbers. Enough said, Lexus is truly the best overall luxury company, and they will stay that way for years to come.
That is no bargin. My 87 535is all dealer serviced $9200..hmmm and I am religious over mantinance.
Second, adding a 5 speed auto to the ES is a Band aid for keep the same basic 3.0 engine since 93/94. Sure they made improvements, but it is the same engine...only 210 HP...and I've driven it...that 5 speed auto isn't Lexus smooth.
and $80K for a used SC430...go to Cherry Hill Lexus, they'll sell you one wit 2500 miles for $55,000. They quoted me $57,000 on a brand new one(they have 6 on there lot currently un-loved)
I admit Lexus is a great company, and they build a great car, but they haven't advanced that much since 90, while everyone else has...in design, quality(six recalls on the new SC430, 5 on the LS430...and don't forget about the starters on the 97 ES that caught fire), performance and Luxury.
They used to lead, now they follow...that is why, the ES is out sold 2 to one by the TL, the RX is equal with the Hard to get MDX(MDX sells at or over list while dealers heavily discount RX), the LS used to out sell 7 series and S class, now is on par) and the GS twins....geeeeez nice socer mom cars...the 5 series out sells them almost 2 to 1 and the 5 series is more expensive.
Notice a trend there...
Joe
2002 IS300
2001 540i Sport
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