Bob259

More concerned that it is in a market of many look alikes and same size vehicles e.g. Mazda, Totota, Kia, Hyundai, Ford... etc. There are at least 5 vehicles that look just like or very close to the CT, all which sell for many thousand less, not Hybrid granted, but many thousand less for a look alike vehicle.

However, the gas prices will still command the higher prices and no discounts any time in the near future.

*Batman*

I share your perspective. In the past, you would say these brands are cheaper but you get what you pay for. But now, what is interesting is the level of equipment these "non-luxury brands" buy.

A friend of mine recently bought a KIA Optima for 23,700 (sticker was over 27). It was equipped with:
200hp 4 cylinder engine which give 34mpg highway
Leather seats
Leather-trimmed french-stitched instrument console
Nice looking wood trim
Dual zone climate control
Panoramic glass roof with moonroof function
Heated and ventilated seats
Heated rear seats
Navigation with backup camera and XM traffic
Satellite radio
Hard drive
Voice activation for phone, navigation, entertainment and several other functions
Electric seats with memory settings on driver side
turn signals on side mirrors

So this car has more luxury features than my GS460 (I don't have rear heated seats, glass roof, leather stitched instrument console, etc.)

And here's the kicker - when you drive it - it feels more solid over potholes and expansion joints (less shaking noises or rattles) than either the IS or GS.

So the price value issue does become key when looking at CT200h. The CT200h, like the Audi A3, is a car you buy for the badge, not for the luxury.

Bob259

Agree 100% Batman. I'm seeing the same and the line between the old 'Luxury' brand and the new comers 'econo boxes' has become so close in a lot of cases it makes better fiscal sense to get the Kia save 20K and plan on swapping it every few years and your money ahead.

Can't quite bring myself to that yet, but in looking at what some of my friends are getting for their money Vs what I pay and get for mine it makes me think I'm making poor fiscal and vehicle decisions seeing you get more for less, just like you point out in your posting. Even AutoWeek and Consumer Reports are giving these makes high marks in their testing.

Still like the CT and I'm first in line for one when it comes in ($41k sticker ), but if they think it's even more gold plated then they already do and think my trade is worth nothing I will pass.

LexFather

Lexus only intends to sell 12k CTs here. Remember this is a car for Europe. Small expensive hatches are a niche market here, not for all people.

The Kia is great new, but how will it hold up in 5 years? You get lovely Kia service, which sucks. It is a pedestrian car built to a price. Its a good car for most but not built to the engineering standards of a Lexus.

Another thing about the CT is the way its built. It is 85% recyclable and a tremendous effort was used to make it a "Green" car. These points are lost on most people but to some it means everything. That means the bamboo speakers and wood trim. The nu-luxe is much more environmentally friendly then leather. Again the CT will be one of the lowest maintenance cars you can buy.

The engineering in the CT was influenced some by the LFA, again the Yamaha dampers and the unique suspension. The paint quality looked fantastic. You can get LED headlights, radar cruise and pre collision.

We all know people buy different cars for different reasons at the same price points. WIth gas back near $4 a gallon the CT seems to be right on time.

*Batman*

This is a dodgy line of argument. There are places you can see they cut cost. For instance the torque steer is more noticeable in the KIA than in the Lexus. So in that area you are right. On the other hand, if you are sitting in the back on a cold winter's day, the heated seats in the KIA will make it feel like a better car than the built-to-cost Lexus which lacks heated seats in the back. Also the CT takes about 10 seconds to hit 60. That's pedestrian too.

Reality is both cars are built to a price. If the CT200h wasn't built to a price, it would have heated seats in the back.

There are very few cars that are not built to a price. The Rolls Royce Phantom is probably not built to a price.

As for reliability, JD Powers believes that Hyundai and KIA are the closest to Toyota as it gets among the Asian car manufacturers.

I'm not making a case for anyone to buy a KIA. I'm just admitting that we buy Lexus's because we place a disproportionate value on slight engineering improvements, and a lot of value in a brand.

LexFather

I agree both are built to a price but a Kia Optima is a pedestrian rental car that just happens to be nice for a rental car. It starts at under $19,000 and you can lease one for $199 a month right now. The heated rear seats are an option and lets be honest, its not some giant leap in technology. I am not downing the Optima, it seems to be a fantastic vehicle for the price but I know it is not built to the standards of a Lexus, even an entry level hatchback one.

Contrarily the CT has an incredible hybrid powertrain that is proven. I was really surprised at the interior and build quality of the CTs I've had experience with, I think Lexus got the memo to put quality back to job #1.

Again the CT has options like LED lights, radar cruise, pre-collision and the remote touch nav (love or hate it) and built with a "green" mentality no Kia can touch.

Hey it is hard to think "mahn 30-40k for a hatchback" but I think they did their HW. This is not some Prius rebadge.

flipside909

All cars are bound to look a like. They all have 4 wheels, most have four, sometimes five doors, 2 headlamps and etc.

The Mazda 3 and the CT look nothing a like. Everyone was obsessed in the past that when the 3GS came out, it looked like a Nissan Altima. You compare the two side by side and in person and they look nothing alike. Styling trends change and evolve over the years...some cars look a like...some dont. Its pretty hard to mistake a CT over a Mazda 3 or a Toyota Matrix. They arent even the same size. Just give it some time.

*Batman*

As a Hertz Presidents Circle member (>40 rentals a year) I can tell you it is very rare to find a new KIA or a new Hyundai in the rental fleet. The highest volume car in that segment in the Hertz fleet is the Toyota Camry, followed by the Ford Fusion and Nissan Altima, Hyundai has been cutting back on fleet sales since they upgraded their product line.

Being slow to recognize that Hyundai/KIA makes quality products like Toyota, reminds me of how the guys at Bimmerfest still don't realize that Japan can make a luxury product on par with Germany. In both cases deep seated perceptions overcome objectivity.

LexFather

^^^ Please don't put words in my mouth. I have been one of the most vocal supporters of what Hyundai/Kia has done and are well aware of their tremendous strides and have given them more then enough credit.

On the flipside I am not engaging in the Hyundai/Kia orgy that seems to be popular.

My last rental was a Kia fyi, Enterprise.

nigel821

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I've come back 11 years later to like this and inform you that there is a like button.

-Nigel