2017 tesla model s p100d new record 0-60 mph in 2.28 seconds!
#91
Lexus Champion
So what's the Betamax equivalent in that comparison? There are only so many battery manufacturers that can produce the volume that the auto industry needs as it is.
Musk wanted to drive the competition towards electric vehicles and he's certainly done that. He wants to push the competition towards autonomous driving and he's doing that too.
Musk wanted to drive the competition towards electric vehicles and he's certainly done that. He wants to push the competition towards autonomous driving and he's doing that too.
The American legal system will even help you here by allowing you to own patents without putting them to use by producing from them -- just sell the rights to use the technology. Just look at Paice; they hold patents on technology that is used by Ford and Toyota in their hybrid systems, yet they have never used them, preferring to sit on them and then sue when an automaker tried to use them.
I am not convinced that Tesla is that innovative. Tesla has merely put to use existing technology that other automakers have not because other automakers are looking further ahead. Tesla is using laptop battery cells whereas other automakers are investing in researching new battery chemistries. And Tesla's Autopilot uses off-the-shelf sensors. What Tesla is good at is pushing this technology to market quickly -- perhaps before the technology (witness the Autopilot autonomous driving system) is ready for primetime.
The key for Tesla is to make money. They are being kept alive by blind faith. Since going public in 2010, Tesla has only turned a profit twice, in different, non-consecutive quarters (only being profitable for 3 months at a time, not 6 months). And Tesla made money by selling green credits in California's cap-and-trade carbon market, not by building and selling cars at a profit.
#92
Lexus Fanatic
I am not convinced that Tesla is that innovative. Tesla has merely put to use existing technology that other automakers have not because other automakers are looking further ahead. Tesla is using laptop battery cells whereas other automakers are investing in researching new battery chemistries.
So what companies are ahead of Panasonic, Samsung, LG etc. and what auto makers are using these fantastic battery cells?
#93
I find it funny that everyone is saying Tesla will fail. But I think they will be just fine. Remember that crude oil is at a finite supply and one day we may not have any gasoline to burn. When the world runs low on oil the worlds governments will have to ration it to prolong the inevitable last drop in the bucket. That is when electric vehicles will start selling like hotcakes. Honestly, i really want to buy one and have the financial means to do so. I travel way too much sometimes more than 300 miles a day so that kinda range from a Tesla and its slow charging ability and lack of infrastructure prevents me from buying one.
But once all of these problems are solved with a lower price point that average joes can afford. I think Tesla will succeed. Almost every mainstream auto manufacturer are going towards the electric vehicle path to meet EPA and other government stadards. Elon Musk is a genius and is really shaking up the car industry. Before he created Tesla I was never impressed with any electrical car built by other manufactuers and this is the first time I like electric vehicles. Thanks to Tesla Motors.
But once all of these problems are solved with a lower price point that average joes can afford. I think Tesla will succeed. Almost every mainstream auto manufacturer are going towards the electric vehicle path to meet EPA and other government stadards. Elon Musk is a genius and is really shaking up the car industry. Before he created Tesla I was never impressed with any electrical car built by other manufactuers and this is the first time I like electric vehicles. Thanks to Tesla Motors.
The competition is much more experienced in engineering the chassis/body structure, and much more experienced in manufacturing.
The competition also has genuinely massive reserves of $$$.
Back in the 1990's, we had the Palm Pilot PDA with a pen-stylus resistive touch screen.
Bill Gates followed with a Microsoft Windows Mobile operating system OS with a color LCD screen.
By 2007, Apple pioneered the finger-driven capacitive touch screen in the iPhone 2G.
However in the years after, the then Microsoft CEO named Steve Ballmer made a "fatal" mistake, and he did NOT quickly develop a Microsoft finger-driven capacitive touchscreen device to compete.
Hence today, Microsoft is dead as far as Ms Windows Phone is concerned, with sales of less than 1% market share.
However, with EV vehicles, many major manufacturers have announced rapid EV development.
Only a few months ago, Akio Toyoda announced that he would spearhead the TMC EV team.
Hence, Tesla doesn't have a bright future.
I do agree with Bob Lutz & Marshall that in-housing the dealerships & supercharger stations is inefficient and costly.
However Tesla's greatest downfall will be the fact that the Lion battery and electric motor already has widespread industrial use throughout the world, and the competition has far more experience in developing the body and in manufacturing, plus their massive cash reserves.
It would have been great if Tesla had some kind of "monopoly" on the battery and electric motor - to keep the competition away; then their dreams will indeed come true...
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Last edited by peteharvey; 02-16-17 at 04:45 PM.
#94
Yes, but GM, Ford had electric vehicles at the end of the 90's and yet here we are, Tesla still way ahead of the competition. Sure they have more money and all of that, but when that money is not invested in R&D then it doesn't have the same impact in the car industry. Here we see every other car maker still profiting from their power in processes and their scale saving but Tesla is getting there also (well not really on the scale of the sales but they are still able to increase their margin now that they are selling more cars than ever).
#95
Yes, but GM, Ford had electric vehicles at the end of the 90's and yet here we are, Tesla still way ahead of the competition. Sure they have more money and all of that, but when that money is not invested in R&D then it doesn't have the same impact in the car industry. Here we see every other car maker still profiting from their power in processes and their scale saving but Tesla is getting there also (well not really on the scale of the sales but they are still able to increase their margin now that they are selling more cars than ever).
The current Tesla electric vehicle revolution is based on lithium ion chemistry with very high energy density with excellent performance and decent range.
#96
Lexus Fanatic
Electric vehicles did not start in the 1990s with GM's Impact. There were a number of them back in the early days of motoring, in the first couple of decades of the 20th century. What killed them off, back then, was the huge growth of the crude-oil and gas industry and the greater range/better flexibility of the gasoline-powered car. Pollution and air quality was not a concern in those days, except for a few notoriously dirty areas like Pittsburgh and its steel industry. L.A. had not yet grown large enough to be seriously polluted by car-exhausts....that would come later.
#97
Lexus Champion
Those GM & Ford EV's in the late 1990's were all NiMH powered with mediocre electrical energy density, hence both mediocre performance and poor range.
The current Tesla electric vehicle revolution is based on lithium ion chemistry with very high energy density with excellent performance and decent range.
The current Tesla electric vehicle revolution is based on lithium ion chemistry with very high energy density with excellent performance and decent range.
#98
Lexus Fanatic
The first-generation GM EV1 came with lead-acid batteries, worse than the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries that came with the second-generation EV1 -- heavier and with shorter range. Battery chemistries certainly have come a long way in the 20 years since the EV1 was first introduced, and automakers like Toyota, GM and the German luxury brands are all investing money in batteries better than the current lithium-ion batteries.
#99
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Tesla is using laptop battery cells whereas other automakers are investing in researching new battery chemistries. And Tesla's Autopilot uses off-the-shelf sensors.
What Tesla is good at is pushing this technology to market quickly -- perhaps before the technology (witness the Autopilot autonomous driving system) is ready for primetime.
The key for Tesla is to make money. They are being kept alive by blind faith. Since going public in 2010, Tesla has only turned a profit twice, in different, non-consecutive quarters (only being profitable for 3 months at a time, not 6 months). And Tesla made money by selling green credits in California's cap-and-trade carbon market, not by building and selling cars at a profit.
Yet you state that the business model is questionable when everyone here can attest to the fact that the car is already accepted and used by the masses. Go ahead, ask.
Honestly, i really want to buy one and have the financial means to do so. I travel way too much sometimes more than 300 miles a day so that kinda range from a Tesla and its slow charging ability and lack of infrastructure prevents me from buying one.
But once all of these problems are solved with a lower price point that average joes can afford. I think Tesla will succeed.
Elon Musk is a genius and is really shaking up the car industry.
but yes, tesla has pushed the car industry forward, whether tesla makes it down the road or not. as far as money, i could see them issuing new stock if they need to to raise funds, sure it's dillutive but with their current market cap the market will likely deal with it if it's explained properly.
#100
Well, considering we have had recessions on an average of every 7 years since the Great Depression due to the standard business cycles of our economy, and the last one started in 2008, you may want to start planning. ;-)
#101
You talk as if the Tesla sedan is still a niche vehicle. These vehicles are so commonplace here in Southern California, I don't even give them a second look anymore. I see many more of these, even P90Ds or P100Ds, than even say a Lexus LS. Yet you state that the business model is questionable when everyone here can attest to the fact that the car is already accepted and used by the masses. Go ahead, ask.
But I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince you that you are behind the times with your rhetoric since you are the self proclaimed voice of the majority. So keep on keeping on.
But I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince you that you are behind the times with your rhetoric since you are the self proclaimed voice of the majority. So keep on keeping on.
#102
I'd say leave that type of driving behavior to the track, no matter what type of car or driver it is. On the streets, it is dangerous and causes problems. The idea when driving was once to be *courteous* and safe around others. With such tempting power and elaborate on-board media devices distracting people, we've lost respect of the road.
#103
Lexus Champion
I agree that Tesla is a viable company, but your view of how successful they are is skewed living in Southern California. I visit there frequently, and it seems like Teslas are a dime-a-dozen. However, they aren't that ubiquitous in other areas of the country. I barely see any in Dallas, where I live, or in Seattle, where I visit every month. And Seattle residents are as "green" as it gets. They are just more Prius-types.
#104
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by Fizzboy7
I'd say leave that type of driving behavior to the track, no matter what type of car or driver it is. On the streets, it is dangerous and causes problems. The idea when driving was once to be *courteous* and safe around others. With such tempting power and elaborate on-board media devices distracting people, we've lost respect of the road.
in my opinion that's a moot point. You'll see hooligans on the street with all sorts of other cars, from priuses, to riced out civics, to hellcats and other high horsepower machines that aren't courteous to anyone either. This is just another vehicle that has a great 0-60 time. not sure why everyone's panties are in a bunch when discussing a tesla vs any other vehicle that gets a good 0-60 time??
#105
^ I agree with "great power comes great responsibility" mantra, don't drive like a ****/race on the street. However, I wouldn't just single out fast cars for a source of ire for jackass drivers. A lot of younger/immature guys with more money than sense are driving huge lifted "bro trucks" as I call them. Once again driving very aggressively, tailgating in something that has bad brakes and compromised handling from the lift kit. Can't tell you how many times I've seen idiots in 4wd trucks blow by me in the snow only to see them in the ditch a few miles down the road.