The Hydrogen Council
01-18-17, 10:01 AM
#1
The Hydrogen Council
Daimler, BMW, and Toyota are leading a group of 13 companies pledging to invest more than $10 billion during the next five years to spur enough infrastructure-building and technology advancements to get more of the general public to buy hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. The automakers, which also include Honda and Hyundai, as well as companies such as Shell, AirLiquide, Linde Group, and Total SA, are part of what they're calling the Hydrogen Council. The group made its announcement in Davos, Switzerland, on Tuesday.
The Hydrogen Council will pledge to accelerate its rate of hydrogen-related investments, which currently stand at about $1.5 billion annually. The coalition says its work represents a continuation of the 2015 Paris Agreement, in which many of the companies agreed to address the issue of climate change. The group says that hydrogen, which emits water vapor when used in fuel-cell vehicles, "can play an important role in the transition to a clean, low-carbon, energy system." The Hydrogen Council also vowed to push global governments to accelerate public investment in hydrogen-related infrastructure.
Relative to other drivetrain technologies, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are in their relative infancy in terms of adoption because of the high cost of both building fuel cell vehicles and setting up a hydrogen-refueling infrastructure. Toyota is the only automaker that sells a production fuel-cell vehicle in the US. The Japanese company, which introduced its Mirai domestically in late 2015, sold 1,034 of them in the US last year. Daimler subsidiary, Mercedes-Benz, used Tuesday's announcement to remind people that it would start selling its GLC plug-in hydrogen fuel-cell crossover this year.
There are only 33 publicly accessible hydrogen refueling stations in the US, including 30 in California, and one each in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and South Carolina, according to the US Department of Energy. By comparison, there are more than 15,000 electric-vehicle charging stations with almost 40,000 outlets in the US.
The Hydrogen Council will pledge to accelerate its rate of hydrogen-related investments, which currently stand at about $1.5 billion annually. The coalition says its work represents a continuation of the 2015 Paris Agreement, in which many of the companies agreed to address the issue of climate change. The group says that hydrogen, which emits water vapor when used in fuel-cell vehicles, "can play an important role in the transition to a clean, low-carbon, energy system." The Hydrogen Council also vowed to push global governments to accelerate public investment in hydrogen-related infrastructure.
Relative to other drivetrain technologies, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are in their relative infancy in terms of adoption because of the high cost of both building fuel cell vehicles and setting up a hydrogen-refueling infrastructure. Toyota is the only automaker that sells a production fuel-cell vehicle in the US. The Japanese company, which introduced its Mirai domestically in late 2015, sold 1,034 of them in the US last year. Daimler subsidiary, Mercedes-Benz, used Tuesday's announcement to remind people that it would start selling its GLC plug-in hydrogen fuel-cell crossover this year.
There are only 33 publicly accessible hydrogen refueling stations in the US, including 30 in California, and one each in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and South Carolina, according to the US Department of Energy. By comparison, there are more than 15,000 electric-vehicle charging stations with almost 40,000 outlets in the US.
01-18-17, 12:24 PM
#2
Pole Position
In case anyone is interested, here's a link to a post on another thread about my Mirai
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ml#post9683907
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ml#post9683907
01-18-17, 12:29 PM
#3
Lexus Champion
The automakers, which also include Honda and Hyundai, as well as companies such as Shell, AirLiquide, Linde Group, and Total SA, are part of what they're calling the Hydrogen Council.
01-18-17, 12:31 PM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Hydrogen refueling will win vs at home charging if electric cars take off.
01-18-17, 12:37 PM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
01-18-17, 02:58 PM
#6
Lexus Champion
You will never be able to fill your hydrogen car at home once people get a taste of this there is no going back. Also the current Mirai gets an equivalent of 67mpg the Chevy Bolt 110 there will have be dramatic improvements for the hydrogen drivetrain to come anywhere near the efficiency of electric. Just admit it hydrogen cars are complete bull**** and the only reason people defend them here is because Toyota is pursuing hydrogen instead of electrics.
01-18-17, 06:01 PM
#7
Pole Position
You will never be able to fill your hydrogen car at home once people get a taste of this there is no going back. Also the current Mirai gets an equivalent of 67mpg the Chevy Bolt 110 there will have be dramatic improvements for the hydrogen drivetrain to come anywhere near the efficiency of electric. Just admit it hydrogen cars are complete bull**** and the only reason people defend them here is because Toyota is pursuing hydrogen instead of electrics.
It's every bit as much an "electric" as a BEV - it just generates its own electricity as it needs it.The main advantage of an FCEV is that they fill rapidly. It's usually a matter of just 3 to 4 minutes or so to fill up with enough hydrogen for around 300 miles of actual range. It's going to be quite a while before that's possible with batteries, although they will of course improve over time too. FCEVs are not going to work for everyone right now, but if you have the infrastructure available to you my experience is that the early FCEVs work very well, combining certain advantages of EVs with certain advantages of regular ICE vehicles. Here in the Bay Area there are a fair few stations, all of them installed at regular gas stations which is how and where the infrastructure will likely continue to roll out.
There's room for FCEVs in the EV realm. Tesla has done a lot to make BEVs great and build the market, and with the likes of bigger and wealthier manufacturers such as Toyota, Honda, BMW and MB now on board it's likely that FCEVs will continue to improve. I hope so, I'm liking mine.
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01-18-17, 07:35 PM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
You will never be able to fill your hydrogen car at home once people get a taste of this there is no going back. Also the current Mirai gets an equivalent of 67mpg the Chevy Bolt 110 there will have be dramatic improvements for the hydrogen drivetrain to come anywhere near the efficiency of electric. Just admit it hydrogen cars are complete bull**** and the only reason people defend them here is because Toyota is pursuing hydrogen instead of electrics.
Having a number of hydrogen filling stations will allow competition to compete for lower prices. Gas will have a hefty carbon tax (already implemented in Ontario).
Mirai is an electric car BTW. It just converts its own electricity from hydrogen.
01-18-17, 08:56 PM
#9
Lexus Champion
Explain why more electricity usage will cause the price to skyrocket but more hydrogen production will cause the price to fall. And if the various governments tax the heck out of electricity then they can't say boo about carbon output and can't claim a carbon tax is justified because electrifying transport most certainly reduces carbon even when using coal and natural gas based power plants.
As for the hydrogen fuel cell car it has two advantages currently, range and time to fill. That's it. The car is slower, more complex, vastly more dangerous, unusable in very cold weather. The two advantages are going to evaporate over time it's only a matter of when.
BTW what part of efficiency do some people not understand? The electric drivetrain currently is 2X of hydrogen and that is only going to grow.
As for the hydrogen fuel cell car it has two advantages currently, range and time to fill. That's it. The car is slower, more complex, vastly more dangerous, unusable in very cold weather. The two advantages are going to evaporate over time it's only a matter of when.
BTW what part of efficiency do some people not understand? The electric drivetrain currently is 2X of hydrogen and that is only going to grow.
01-18-17, 09:18 PM
#10
Lexus Fanatic
^ as the demand for electricity increases and grows, so too will the cost of this electricity. There are already usage caps and issues once demand is at peak usage (summer air conditioning etc etc). It's nice that you can charge an EV today , but the demand is not yet there, once it grows, it will cost more on electricity
01-18-17, 09:22 PM
#11
Lexus Champion
Explain why one of these will cause pricing issues but the other won't.
01-18-17, 09:27 PM
#12
Pole Position
Mirai works fine in very cold weather. Toyota reports that the fuel cell stack output performance in Mirai was tested in very cold weather. In tests, after starting cars parked outdoors overnight for 17 hours at temperatures as low as -30C/-22F. One hundred per cent power output was obtained 70 seconds after starting. That's more than enough for the vast majority of likely customers.
Vastly more dangerous? Arguably, arguably not. I'm unaware of any cases of hydrogen leaks or complications after accidents. If you choose to focus on the theoretical, you have to be equally open to the risk of electrical injury after an accident in a BEV. If you have any evidence of the car being "vastly more dangerous" perhaps you can post it.
I agree the car is complex, the drivetrain is more advanced than any current BEV, but all EVs are complex to one extent or another. Sure, my car is slower than a Tesla, but BEVs can't generate their own power and don't have the range mine does. It's taken a while for the likes of Tesla to get closer to Mirai's range, it's more likely than not that future FCEVs will further improve on the current range and further maintain a range advantage. Honda's Clarity has a range of just under 370 miles. Both Mirai and Clarity, of course, can do that from a 3 to 4 minute fill up. Mirai and Clarity aren't tuned for speed. They are mainly technology testbeds. Future FCEVs will generate more power, whether that translates into greater range or greater speed remains to be seen. My buddy has a P90D and it's a great car. With that said, he's become bored of the amazing acceleration from a dig and right now doesn't really drive his car any quicker than I can drive mine. His lease payment is also over $1750 per month, Mirai can be leased for $349.
It's important to be open minded about this things. When BEVs first hit the market there were plenty of naysayers and doom-mongers who claimed they would never take off. With the investment commitment from BMW, MB and others now coming on board, manufacturers with access to vastly more funds and resources than say Tesla, there's a path to success for FCEVs.
Vastly more dangerous? Arguably, arguably not. I'm unaware of any cases of hydrogen leaks or complications after accidents. If you choose to focus on the theoretical, you have to be equally open to the risk of electrical injury after an accident in a BEV. If you have any evidence of the car being "vastly more dangerous" perhaps you can post it.
I agree the car is complex, the drivetrain is more advanced than any current BEV, but all EVs are complex to one extent or another. Sure, my car is slower than a Tesla, but BEVs can't generate their own power and don't have the range mine does. It's taken a while for the likes of Tesla to get closer to Mirai's range, it's more likely than not that future FCEVs will further improve on the current range and further maintain a range advantage. Honda's Clarity has a range of just under 370 miles. Both Mirai and Clarity, of course, can do that from a 3 to 4 minute fill up. Mirai and Clarity aren't tuned for speed. They are mainly technology testbeds. Future FCEVs will generate more power, whether that translates into greater range or greater speed remains to be seen. My buddy has a P90D and it's a great car. With that said, he's become bored of the amazing acceleration from a dig and right now doesn't really drive his car any quicker than I can drive mine. His lease payment is also over $1750 per month, Mirai can be leased for $349.
It's important to be open minded about this things. When BEVs first hit the market there were plenty of naysayers and doom-mongers who claimed they would never take off. With the investment commitment from BMW, MB and others now coming on board, manufacturers with access to vastly more funds and resources than say Tesla, there's a path to success for FCEVs.
01-18-17, 09:32 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
There is no rational argument for hydrogen, sorry. As for people "getting bored" with owning a very fast car that is a silly argument to be kind, heck then all auto makers should make their models slower, because well people don't want fast cars. We'll see ads bragging about models slower than the competition.
BTW your car does not generate its own power in the way you are characterizing, it is simply converting one form of energy to another (at a net loss).
BTW your car does not generate its own power in the way you are characterizing, it is simply converting one form of energy to another (at a net loss).
01-18-17, 09:35 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
I don't mainly due to the severe lack of charging options.