mmarshall

I agree that dealerships aren't going to make a habit of losing money even on repeats, but that doesn't mean that some customers don't get better deals than others. Hey, I myself have had a couple of deals that I didn't think were that good (such as when I was buying a Mazda back in the 1980s, when Japanese cars were restricted and hard to get), but were the best I could do under the circumstances. Others turned out to be quite a bit better then expected....especially when I had a cream-puff of a trade-in.

Anyhow, I don't want to drag this thread too far off-topic, but probably the most annoying thing in ANY deal is the asinine documentation fee....and it can be very hard or impossible to avoid, especially where state laws allow it or don't place a limit on it. If here is anything in the deal-making process that is a rip-off (short of actually marking up a vehicle over list).....that's it.

SW17LS

I'll just add that dealers are experts at making people feel like they're getting a really good deal or a special deal.

mmarshall

Well, yes and no. If they actually WERE experts at that, they'd get rid of that silly DOC fee. Some shops not only charge it, but openly flaunt it in the showroom, with signs posted saying how much it is.

SW17LS

The fact that they charge the doc fee is an example of how expert they are at getting people to think they've got a great deal. They've got $500 profit or whatever built in right there. The signs are everywhere telling people that fee exists so they aren't surprised, so they look at a lower price and don't factor in the fee. Thats something you see all the time shopping in VA from MD. Dealers in VA are always lower, but people don't realize that fee and once its in there then the deal is no different from their dealer in MD, perhaps not as good. MD dealers are capped at like $99 or something. Most people go to VA and think they've got a better deal...because again dealers are experts at making people think they've got a great deal.

The fee is not "silly". Its a business, those fees make those dealers a lot of revenue....

mmarshall

It's silly the way they actually market it. The documentation costs are already built into the car's mark-up.

You are correct that MD caps the doc-fees and VA doesn't, but, in the past, sales tax on a new car was, lower in VA to compensate (but I think they are the same in both states now).

SW17LS

It's not silly, it has nothing to do with documentation. You can't call it "profit fee", but that's what it is.

People happily pay it, and that's why they charge it.

Sales tax in the state you buy it in is meaningless. If you buy it out of state you pay your resident states sales tax.

MattyG

It's interesting to see this because the US has different rules vs Canada. Or at least Alberta. Here the license plate and the registration follow the owner (translation tag and title?). The subsequent owner of the vehicle gets his own insurance, registers the car once they have that insurance and bill of sale using their previous license plate and registration paperwork.

You do this yourself. You don't need to have the dealer's back office staff do this. There are private registry companies blocks from where I live that do this and so for me it's about $85CAD to register my car for one year on the plate. Insurance I arrange through my broker prior to registration.

Liens, previous history of accidents etc is your responsibility or your selling owner or dealership. Canadian dealers will of course do the lien check and previous history for you but if they're charging you some sort of doc fee, it's an "add".

So to me as far as dealerships in the US or possibly Canada saying they have to charge a "documentation fee"? That sounds like a Dealer Overhead Cost fee. It's to pay for the back office folks. If you're buying from a dealership and they spring it on you after the negotiations are done and you don't like it... walk away.

dseag2

Since we have totally gone off subject anyway, I'll share a story about one of the top salespeople at my Infiniti dealership. I've leased 5 (yes 5) Infinitis from her in the span of 9 years. She is really on top of things and keeps in touch when she knows my lease is coming to an end. She is a great salesperson. I'll give her that. She even put a red bow on one of our cars because it was delivered at Christmastime.

We do everything, even negotiations, through email and I sign the paperwork when I get there. One would think that she would try to give me a good price off the bat, but no. When we leased our '13 G37 Vert her offer was outrageous, so I shopped another dealer. I got a much better offer from them and she ultimately matched it. Recently I emailed her about a Q70 Special Edition with 4k miles, thinking she might give me a better offer than on a new one. Her lease offer was actually HIGHER than on a brand new one. When I asked her why, she said "Used Q70's don't lease as well as new ones". She didn't tell me that when I inquired, and would have never told me had I not done some comparisons. (I leased my '17 A4 instead.)

Even the nicest salespeople and the ones you enjoy doing business with are out to make a buck and will "high ball" you at every opportunity. Hey, I know it's a business. You just have to do your homework.

SW17LS

Thats exactly what it is.

And go where? Every dealership charges them. And like Mike said its posted all over the dealer so by the time you get to the finance people you know its coming.

mmarshall

The doc fee is usually included on the general Bill of Sale, at deal-time, before you ever get back into the Finance Manager's office to finalize things. Once you get into the FM's office, then you start getting hit with extra things like extended warrantes, service/oil-change packages (if the manufacture doesn't offer free maintenance), paint-sealant/protection, fabric-seat protection against spills, gap insurance if the car is financed, etc.....

mmarshall

Don't want to step on the moderator's toes here, but we've spent so much time talking about doc-fees that it seems we got way off topic.....the comparison between the G90, CT6, and Continental. Steve has already sampled all three of them...and given us some good comments. I've full-reviewed the CT6 and Continental (generally preferring the Continental), and took a look at a G90, but without a test-drive. I plan to do a (major) full-review on a G90 for the Annual Holiday Review I do every year in November or December....looking forward to it.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

100% true. dealerships don't count on KBB or NADA, they laugh at those. they use their own black books

back on the G90. given the price, maybe i should take a close look at it in a few months when my GS lease is due

mmarshall

Actually, the last time I did a trade, I got better than KBB. The salesman had previously known me, though, knew how I operated, and was a repeat customer. But, yes, with a stranger, you really don't know what you're dealing with until the negotiating actualy starts.

I haven't test-driven one (yet), but I don't think you will be disappointed. It's quite impressive inside and out, and compares favorably with some upper-level Lexus products.

Also, if you haven't done so yet, check out a 5.0L G80. I test-drove one a couple of years ago, back when it was under the Hyundai Genesis nameplate, and its road manners simply stunned me.

SW17LS

Since dealers don't use KBB the fact that you got more than KBB is a coincidence. And I would bet you paid more for the car you were buying than you could have and they moved that profit over to the trade.

And ive never seen or signed a bill of sale until I was in the finance managers office.

You should definatwky look look at the G90 rominl

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

agreed, and agreed. i DO sympathize with dealer salespeople in that they have to make a living, have families to support, mortgages, their own car payments, healthcare, etc. so it's a 'process' they're out to get all they can from the deal, and will say ANYTHING to accomplish that. they'll stroke your ego, tell lies, bury you in conflicting and incomplete information to confuse you, tell you what a great deal it is, waste your time with visits to the back office to wear you down, etc., etc. and then onto the finance guy who's worse. it's an AWFUL process and you have real discipline not to get ripped off. one small story - when i bought my jeep they told me i could get under 2% financing - when the paper was written up, it was about 3% and i wouldn't have noticed it but someone i was with did (thankfully). no innocent mistake that. another half hour to redo the stupid 'paperwork'.

exactly. the dealer isn't making the deal unless THEY are happy with it. they hold all the cards really, and all the negotiating skills, and i always say they know the customer better than the customer knows themselves. i wonder what percentage of people come out of car transactions feeling humiliated, guilty, confused, or have buyer's remorse shortly thereafter. it's abusive, but caveat emptor, right?

back to the thread... the g90, ls, ct6, and continental are all nice luxurious cars - the g90 is an amazing value, the ls is old but solid and beautiful, the ct6 to me is very impressive and unique and not quite as huge as others, and the contintental, well, i just think it will be an epic fail in the market (and i'm rooting for ford!).