mmarshall

Well, tell that to Subaru, which had several pages of tire-changing procedures in the Manual for my Outback. Depending on whether a front or rear tire went, one may have to not only disable the AWD by pulling a fuse (converting the car to FWD), but actually, in some cases, shifting the position of the remaining good tires. To put it bluntly, it was a pain in the a**.

Of course, my Outback was not the latest version, so those rules may or may not apply on the latest electronic torque-vectoring Subie AWD systems.

I agree an extra diff fluid-change isn't necessarily that big a deal ...but just wanted to be sure the OP was aware of it.

Here's a nice ideo, BTW, on how to do it, without fussing through the manual itself............

SW17LS

That was a long time ago...there is no such requirement on any AWD vehicle I have ever owned. Certainly not on an AWD Lexus which is what the OP was talking about.

UDel

AWD vehicles are more expensive then FWD or RWD vehicles, this mainly includes the initial cost which can be around $1000 to several thousand dollars extra, you do have to change more fluids, decreased fuel economy, increased maintenance, and there can be issues if one tire needs to be replaced if all tires are well worn but not needing to be changed. The added cost may not matter to some people but for others it may or they see no worth in spending the extra money for a awd vehicle.

Easier to get around in the snow is relative and not guaranteed in all situations with a awd vehicle, for simply driving out of your neighborhood and to work it may be no easier with a awd vehicle compared to a fwd vehicle for the majority of drivers, if you are in a rural area, or your house/neighborhood is on a steep incline it may be easier to just slightly easier. It is up to the driver to figure if they want to spend sometimes thousands extra just for it to be a little easier during mostly rare heavy snowstorms

If awd is making a driver drive in snow/dangerous conditions more often with maybe more sense of security then they would with a fwd vehicle then it actually would be more dangerous and more of a negative.

There have been tests done where it showed a fwd vehicle with snow tires was much better in the snow then a awd vehicle with all seasons, a fwd vehicle with all seasons will be better then a awd vehicle with summer tires but a awd vehicle with snow tires would be the best.

Like I have said before awd was almost non existent on cars before 2000 and before then drivers seemed to make do just fine in those states with mostly fwd or rwd vehicles and snow removal would have been worse the earlier you go. It is not necessary or even a very good idea in those states or most parts of the US to spend extra on awd, depending on some circumstances it may be easier but in most it is likely no easier then a fwd vehicle with good all season tires. If it was a question about rural areas on the upper east coast/New England states, mountains, or in Alaska then yes I would think AWD is pretty necessary or recommended if you don't want to deal with changing out winter tires but in that case I would probably recommend a 4WD vehicle if driving in heavy snow in rural areas is going to happen.

mmarshall

OK...I'll agree, not on a Lexus. Lexus customers probably wouldn't put up with that LOL.

SW17LS

Having had both I would tell them it's worth it. Plus here, it's all they sell so they make the decision for you. Cannot buy a RWD Lexus sedan in MD basically, unless it's like a GS200t theta doesn't come RWD.

Having had the same vehicle in AWD and RWD, as well has FWD Lexus vehicles I just fundamentally disagree. I don't see how anybody who also had that experience would make that statement.

May as well be telling me the sky is green.

But you're spending money on snow tires and wheels and mounting and balancing. Why is that money well spent yet the money on AWD is not?

With my experience I would not agree about FWD on snow tires. I would agree a RWD car on snow tires would be better than an AWD on all seasons. But on the same tires the AWD car is always going to be better in the snow. Never going to convince me otherwise.

So? Why does the fact this technology is newer and we used to get by without it mean that it isnt of value? Our cars are full of technology we used to get by without that we now use and it make sure our cars better and safer. AWD is one of those technologies.

Have you you ever had an AWD car? Ever driven the same car in RWD and AWD in the snow? How many winters have you spent driving RWD, AWD and FWD cars specifically in the D.C. metro area?

UDel

I never said spending money on snow tires is money well spent or spending money on awd is a waste of money, I have never even owned a pair of winter tires though I have helped people change them. I said awd is not necessary in those states and often the need is over hyped, I also say winter tires are not necessary in those states either when it comes to simple getting in and out of your neighborhood and to work, school, grocery store especially when you are smart about driving in the snow and stay off the road when it is too dangerous. Generally buying a pair of winter tires though is much less expensive then a awd option, if you have 2 tire jacks and a pair of jack stands you can change you tires out in your garage in about 30 min or so for storms which means the winter tires would rarely be used and could last the life of the car though you will have to have a place to store them. Either way snow tires or awd is not necessary to live in those relatively mild winter East Coast states. You may not agree with the snow tires on a 2wd car performing better then all seasons on a awd vehicle but numerous tests have shown that.

Again I never said awd is with no value, I said it is not "necessary"which is what the question is in those states, people have been perfectly fine driving non awd cars in those states for decades, it was only up until after the year 2005 or so that awd has become a pretty common option on mostly luxury cars, for much more popular family sedans and econo cars it is still very rare if almost a non existent option.

Not that I think it is that important but I have not owned(but have driven several) a awd car so far, never felt the need for it, I have owned and driven rwd and fwd cars in and around those East Coast states in the winter for about 9 years, I never got stuck in either of those vehicles or had any issues driving them but I never drove when roads were too dangerous to drive any kind of vehicle.

SW17LS

You're not reading what I'm saying. You keep saying that I've said things when in reality I've said the exact opposite.

In fact, I said that I did agree with that, just not FWD:

With winter tires an AWD car is still going to be superior than a RWD or FWD car also on winter tires though. Show me tests that have not shown that.

And this is what I said:

Not sure why you continue to argue with me as if I'm saying AWD is required. I have repeatedly said that it is not required, but its nice to have and makes driving in the winter here easier. Like I said, lots of technology that didn't used to exist that does exist now...why that has any bearing on what equipment you choose doesn't make sense. We used to have cars without power windows...without bluetooth audio...without traction control...

If you were leaving your house to drive somewhere in 5 inches of snow, and you had three identical Lexus sedans with all season tires, one was RWD and one was FWD and one was AWD...which would you choose to drive? Thats the point.

It is important because you're offering opinions people are going to use in purchase decisions in a specific location when you don't have any experience with the specific system they're deciding whether they should buy or not, and you don't live in the location that they're asking about. I've had FWD, RWD and AWD Lexus vehicles and have lived in the MD/DC/VA are all my life...so I'm not sure why we're still arguing about this...

Its not necessary, but given the choice between the systems in MD/DC/VA I would always choose AWD having had these cars in RWD, FWD & AWD and having driven them specifically in this area for 20 years. Not sure what experience you have to keep telling me I'm wrong when you've never owned an AWD Lexus and don't even live in this area.

JDR76

I've been happy with my AWD vehicles so I plan to stick with them for now, but no, I don't think AWD is necessary. I consider it a "nice to have" option. If I lived somewhere that never saw snow and I never took winter trips to the mountains, I would go RWD.

The tire discussion always gets to me. It's like saying I can run faster than Usain Bolt if I put him in high heel shoes and I wear my running shoes. Hobbling the better platform with sub-optimal equipment doesn't make that platform less worthy, it just means it's equipped wrong. So yes, obviously a FWD or RWD platform could do better in snow with snow tires than AWD with summer or all seasons. I just prefer AWD with all seasons because in my experience it performs better than FWD or RWD with similar tires, so I can get some added benefits of AWD without the hassle of snow tires, in a location that typically sees only one or two snow events a year, and my somewhat frequent trips to the mountain passes, where AWD eliminates the requirement to use chains.

Edit: I should also add that I enjoy the way AWD performs in the rain, which is what I typically face here in the PNW.

grayson73

I'm the OP and I posted this because I was considering getting a GS 450H (RWD) to save money on gas rather than a GS 350 AWD. I'd save $700 a year on gas with the current gas prices, and I expect gas prices to go up.

SW17LS

That's a value decision you need to make. The GS450h has other benefits, how much are they worth to you? Is it your only car? Do you have to get places in the snow?

Driving a hybrid in the snow is another layer of concern. I've had that pleasure too, and Toyota's HSD doesn't like wheelspin. We had a Prius, and despite being FWD it wasn't good in the snow at all because as soon as there was any wheelspin it would cut power and it was hard to get moving. Perhaps that's improved.

Worst case 350 days out of the year it'll be fine.

To me it's also about the ability to travel somewhere in the snow should I want or need to, whether I do or not. As an example some years ago on Christmas Eve we had a pretty good snow and ice storm, we had family up in WV that were supposed to come down and they couldn't because of the weather. Well, we packed dinner and presents up and drove up to them. Had I had a RWD sedan as my only car or even a FWD sedan I wouldn't have done that.

Skylar978

iTrader: (1)

If you are inexperienced with driving IN snow, AWD is a must. I know people that have had their license for over 30 years and still are not experienced enough to drive RWD in the snow.

Most of the time, from my experience the roads are mostly cleared away to be driven on either way. The "main" roads where there are lots of traffic are always fine to be driven on.

UDel

The GS 450H carries a very significant premium over a standard GS350, 350 starts at around 50K, 450H starts around 63K, you won't even break even with gas savings if you keep the car 10 years so there is no gas savings benefit with the GS450H which is why it sells very poorly, it is no quicker then the standard GS350 model either and there is extra weight and trunk room intrusion to deal with plus the possibility of a issue with the hybrid system. I would get a standard awd GS over the very expensive hybird where you will spend much more money buying it then any gas savings you would not see. It looks like the GS350awd carries no premium of the rwd and may even be a little less expensive so it is really a no brainer to get the GS350awd over the very expensive hybrid and since you are paying no premium for it in this case the awd would be the smarter buy over the rwd if you are on the fence about driving in the snow.

SW17LS

Specifically in the DC metro area? Your profile says you're in MA. Snow removal is significantly better in MA than it is here. Even main roads here can stay snow covered for sizable periods after the end of a snow.

UDel, I'm sure he's buying a used GS. Not nearly the same premium for the 450h

SW17LS

As an example...this is the Beltway. If you are out on the roads when we have a moderate snow, this is what you will find. This is probably 5 inches of snow on the ground. This road is what we would consider "already plowed" here:



This is 270 in MD. As you can see from the grass, this isn't a lot of snow yet at all (maybe an inch), yet, look at the roads...and this would be an example of 270 in good shape.



This is Great Seneca Highway coming from Germantown towards North Potomac where I live. Great Seneca Hwy is a Snow Emergency Route, and again look at the grass, this is perhaps 2-3 inches of snow and this is the state of the Snow Emergency Route, this is also an example of the road in good shape:



This is Laurel, MD, a neighborhood street, probably 6-7 inches of snow. Depending on where you live your neighborhood street could look like this for several days after this sort of snow:



Can you get around in a FWD or even RWD car, yeah...I did it for years, you see people doing it in these pictures, but its a lot easier and less stressful to get around with AWD even if you're an experienced snow driver. Another thing to consider is the traffic, even in bad weather we have a lot of traffic here, which means you have to stop, you can't get momentum moving up hills or ramps, you may have to stop at the base of a hill for traffic, and then start up the hill. Do you want to try and do that in a FWD or RWD car, or an AWD car? I was driving home a couple years ago in my AWD GS we had a snow that started mid morning and by 2:00 we had 4-5 inches of snow, I drove home from Bethesda in that snow. Not a crazy snow, but that picture above of the Beltway is what we had everywhere, FWD and RWD cars were sliding sideways on 270 trying to get up the hill, traffic had slowed them down to 5-10 MPH and they couldn't get traction. I just drove up the hill. Turning into my neighborhood I had to pull across snow that hadn't been driven over to turn left, a FWD sedan was stuck in that spot, I simply drove around him and completed the turn with snow so deep the bottom of the GS was dragging. Now had he gotten a little burst of speed he would have been fine but he couldn't do that because he had to stop and wait for oncoming traffic, as did I. He was stuck, I was not...because of AWD.

If you do in fact do something you shouldn't and get yourself in a hairy situation, like that guy in the FWD car that got stuck, AWD will help you get back out of it. If you're snowed in a parking space or on the street, or in your driveway, an AWD car will be easier to get out than a FWD or RWD car.

Even if you never get stuck, you will feel more confident and secure in the AWD car.

It would be one thing if you paid a significant penalty in your vehicle those 350 other days, but you don't. On the road on a nice dry day my AWD LS is exactly like my RWD LS's. So I pay a little more in fuel, and I paid a little bit more for the car. If someone was saying "can I drive a sedan or do I have to get an SUV" that would be one thing, but the same car in RWD/FWD or AWD here? No brainer to get the AWD.

Coleroad

I don't care fwd, rwd, awd, or 4x4. A good set of winter tires makes much more of a difference. Not enough can be said about the effectiveness of winter tires, and your ability to get around easier. Even on my Land Rover I get winter tires. It's silly not to unless there is no way you can afford them.