What's The Point Of Owning A 'Luxury' Car Anymore?
08-28-16, 08:01 PM
#121
Lexus Fanatic
The ES250 was a place holder and model to try to give the Lexus brand some volume and a more affordable entry,.it did not really compete well with the Acura Legend which was more upscale and sporty, got very good reviews, and sold very well. By the time the Lexus brand started in the US, a much larger more upscale Acura Legend was closely on its way. The 2nd Gen Legend competed much more favorably with the LS400 at the time, it was nearly as big, had most of its luxury features/build quality and even some features the LS400 didn't have, was quicker, sportier, and not that down on power with the 230hp version. The Acura Vigor and later TL were more of the ES competitors by that time.
08-28-16, 08:23 PM
#122
Lexus Fanatic
The Legend was a little smaller than the LS, FWD. V6 powered. The RL same, not really an LS competitor. The issue was that dealers wanted a smaller FWD entry to capture that part of the market. Which the ES250 didn't do but that's why it existed before the ES300 was ready.
Believe it or not, the Legend actually offered a 5-speed manual transmission....althogh, unfortunately, with a very troublesome clutch.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-28-16 at 08:26 PM.
08-28-16, 08:46 PM
#123
Lexus Fanatic
When you're dealing with the history of something it's generally better to read about what actually happened vs forming your own conclusions.
I Prefer to believe that World War 2 ended in 1954.
I Prefer to believe that World War 2 ended in 1954.
08-28-16, 10:53 PM
#124
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
08-29-16, 05:35 AM
#125
Lexus Fanatic
For instance, I read Lee "Lido" Iacocca's book, and, while he does not totally discount the notably poor quality of the Chrysler products of his time (me and my mother owned several of them, and learned the hard way), he significantly downplays it. He was also IMO somewhat two-faced, publicly opposing Japanese imports at the time, yet selling rebadged Mitsubishis and Mitsubishi-platformed vehicles as Chrysler products. And Iacoccca wasn't alone.....Roger Smith at GM, and Henry Ford II at Ford, talked a lot of the same B.S. and also turned out lemons. The domestic auto industry, at that time, basically screwed itself.
I Prefer to believe that World War 2 ended in 1954.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-29-16 at 05:46 AM.
08-29-16, 05:51 AM
#126
Lexus Fanatic
Probably not off-topic if you consider the JGC, like I do, right on the borderline between what is considered a true luxury SUV and what isn't. IMO, the JGC's interior actually beats that of some so-called 'luxury" SUVs.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-29-16 at 05:54 AM.
08-29-16, 06:35 AM
#127
Lexus Fanatic
Before you disagree with me I would suggest you at least read these books
I used to be a tour guide downtown at the National Air and Space Museum....and later was part of the display crew that worked the original atomic-bomb/Enola Gay display there (before the large aircraft, with its 141' wingspan, was totally restored and moved out to the Dulles annex). Part of what we did was answer questions from the public on the two atomic strikes and the role they played (along with the Russian invasion of Manchuria a couple of data later), which brought a quick end to the conflict.
Last edited by SW17LS; 08-29-16 at 06:41 AM.
08-29-16, 01:49 PM
#128
Lexus Fanatic
Sorry, but that part I'm going to have to disagree with. The Acura Legend was a large, full-size car....later to become the RL. The ES250 competed much more with the smaller Acura Integra. The larger LS, of course, competed with the Legend, though Legend sales eventually tanked, while the LS was far more successful.
The ES250 was not a flop. It sold at around 19K and 17K in the first two years, those are very good numbers for a brand new vehicle from a brand new brand.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 08-29-16 at 02:20 PM.
08-29-16, 01:56 PM
#129
Lexus Fanatic
Jeep is not a luxury brand. I would barely call it a "premium" brand. Its kinda like GMC. As for the Jeep GC, the best competitor for the GC is the Toyota 4Runner which still starts at $5000 more than a JGC. The GJC does get up there in price, but when you get to $50K-$70K, I would rather spend that money on the Lexus GX.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 08-29-16 at 02:00 PM.
08-29-16, 02:13 PM
#130
Lexus Fanatic
Jeep is not a luxury brand. I would barely call it a "premium" brand. Its kinda like GMC. As for the Jeep GC, the best competitor for the GC is the Toyota 4Runner which still starts at $5000 more than a JGC. The GJC does get up there in price, but when you get to $50K-$70K, I would rather spend that money on the Lexus GX.
search=&year=2017&make=Jeep&model=Grand+Cherokee&bodyStyle=&internetPrice=&saveFacetState=true&lastFacetInteracted=inventory-listing1-facet-anchor-model-2
Now, having said that, I'll agree that the Jeep brand, in general, is not considered a luxury brand, especially the low-grade Compass, Patriot, and Renegade, which are crude at best. But the JGC clearly stands out from the pack.
It's the same way with the Kia K900, Hyundai Equus, and Hyundai Genesis, which are essentially luxury-grade vehicles from a non-luxury manufacturer. Same with the JGC.
08-29-16, 02:16 PM
#131
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by SW15LS
Before you disagree with me I would suggest you at least read these books
08-29-16, 02:17 PM
#132
Lexus Fanatic
It can stand out from the pack all it wants. It still does not mean that Jeep as a brand is a luxury brand. I never once said that the JGC is not a luxury car nor did I say it is one. But at a $29K US starting point, the standard options does not convince me that it is a true luxury car.
08-29-16, 02:27 PM
#133
Lexus Fanatic
I would agree that the 2nd Legend was a full size car, no doubt about it. The first gen Legend had a 2.5 V6 standard as well as a 5 speed manual and 4 speed auto just like the Lexus ES250. But the Integra was a 4 cylinder vehicle that started at almost $8K below the ES250. Also, I will add that Lexus did market the first ES250 as a "Luxury Sports Sedan"...they even said the ES250 "redefines" it.
The ES250 was not a flop. It sold at around 19K and 17K in the first two years, those are very good numbers for a brand new vehicle from a brand new brand.
08-29-16, 02:32 PM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
It can stand out from the pack all it wants. It still does not mean that Jeep as a brand is a luxury brand. I never once said that the JGC is not a luxury car nor did I say it is one. But at a $29K US starting point, the standard options does not convince me that it is a true luxury car.
That's what's so nice about the JGC.....it comes from a lower-line brand, but drives (and looks) like an upscale (even borderline luxury) product. It's also not an inexpensive product when you look at well-trimmed or upper-line versions....like the Ford Explorer, it can run well over 50K.
I don't think we have anything further to argue or debate here...we seem to (now) agree on at least that one issue. You admit it stands out from the pack, which is true. And I admit that Jeep, is not a luxury brand, which is true.
Look.......I don't own or lease a JGC. I don't have anything to gain personally by defending or extolling it. I'm just calling it like I found it when I test-drove them.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-29-16 at 02:38 PM.
08-29-16, 02:33 PM
#135
Lexus Fanatic
It was not a flop in any way at all. It sold 19K units in the first year, that is very good for a car that was in its 4th MY year of the platform and from a brand that nobody had ever heard of.