SW17LS

I had this conversation with a really excellent Mercedes salesman I met when I test drove the new E300. Yes there is a big premium for a Mercedes over something like a Lexus, or even a BMW, but like I said before you can't quantify luxury. If you put down on paper the benefits of a Mercedes vs a Lexus you surely would come to the conclusion that the Mercedes was not worth the premium over a similar Lexus product. Yet, plenty of people pay that premium, or make do with a much less equipped Mercedes when they could have had a quantifiably better Lexus. Why?

There is something about a Mercedes, the brand image, selling proposition, the way the car is made, attention to detail even in situations where material quality may lack, the way it feels on the road and the way you feel when you're driving it that makes it worth more. He said that if you enjoy luxury cars you should try a Mercedes at some point in your life, and I agree.

In general, that intangible allure has always drawn me to a Mercedes, but when I go and drive the model that I'm interested in the reality of what I can get for the money turns me away. Thats changing though, I like the C Class optioned right. The E Class highly optioned I would like if I could get it in a 6 cyl. And I love the S Class. Bottom line though to get an E I would want I would have to pay about what my LS460 cost, and have a smaller car with a 4 banger...thats not a swap I can make.

At some point in my life though I'll have an S Class.

BrownPride

Really well said. Most Benzes before the newest iterations of the S, E, and C-classes were in my opinion pretty mediocre. Mercedes was still churning out relics from their Chrysler days and it showed in the material quality and performance of their vehicles. For example, the W204 C-class ('07-'14) had such a crappy interior I was amazed people actually considered buying it over the A4 and 3-series. Before the refresh the interior was even more horrendous. The current CLA, GLA, CLS, GLE, GLS, and G-class are all still sub-par products relative to the competition that for some reason keep selling. The GLE (formerly ML) is an especially crappy excuse for a vehicle.

Don't even get me started on the first three generations of the Lexus RX! Only God knows why people loved them.

SW17LS

But people still bought them/buy them. My business partner had a W204 C Class before he got his GS, and I rode in it many times. I gotta say, even though I agree quantifiably that A4 and 3 and IS were all superior cars...but there was "something" about that C Class that was just different.

mmarshall

It's not that difficult to figure out. They were quiet and refined, they didn't break, and you got good customer service.

Toys4RJill

Any brand can provide the above if they really want to.

What Lexus did when they started out was to provide a luxurious experience, they checked all of the boxes when they released the original LS, they had excellent, unique marketing and they then built upon this with each release.

Toyota got the Lexus product, brand image and experience right when they started.

LexBob2

The NX set the stage for all of the luxury CUV's that are on the market now. Nothing in the segment has sold as well for such a long period. All of the other brands obviously wanted a piece of that volume. Even with the new polarizing style it keeps rolling along.

mmarshall

Depends on the circumstances. Mercedes got a reputation for unreliability and decreasing product-quality during and after the late 1990s......but that is because they simply could not compete with the Lexus LS at the time, and were forced to cut costs. It is only recently, with the new S, C, and E-classes that their reputation is going back up again.



Almost. The first-generation ES250 was a flop.....much too close to the Camry in is design. It didn't deserve to sell, and it didn't.

SW17LS

The ES250 was never supposed to be a long term solution, thats why it only existed for 2 years. Lexus intended the LS400 to be a standalone product at launch (notice that early LS400s have no LS400 badges? Thats why), but very close to launch the dealer network demanded another product to sell. So, the ES250 was thrown in there until the ES300 was ready in 1992.

As for sales, the ES250 did not sell that poorly, they did sell 35,000 ES250s in the US over those two years. The CT200h for comparison doesn't sell as well as the ES250 did back then.

So you really can't consider the ES250 a failure, Lexus didn't want to offer it at all, they were cajoled into it and it was just a stopgap car.

mmarshall

OK, if you look at it that way, fine...I'll agree with that. The point I was making, though, was that, compared to the excellent ES300, 330, and 350 models that followed it, the original 250, with only minor revisions, was basically a rebadged Camry. I wasn't impressed with it at all. It was so close to the 2Gen Camry in its design that, already being familiar with that version of the Camry, I don't think, if my memory is right, that I even did a test-drive.

I think another (probable) reason is that Lexus needed an entry-level car that would compete with the Mercedes C-220/280 and BMW 3-series of that era. The cheap, quick, and obvious solution was to rebadge a Camry.

RXSF

Sister who purchased a 2015 C class two years ago purchased prepaid at $1200 for 4 years. While this may include the brake fluid service which usually runs in the $300s, it DOES NOT include the transmission fluid service which will run you $700 at year 4.

SW17LS

The ES250 was never meant to be anything but a rebadged Camry. Like I said, it was a placeholder car offered because the dealer network wanted a second car to sell, and they wanted something to compete with the Acura Legend.

I'm not guessing on this, I've read several books about the development and rollout of Lexus as a brand. This IS the reason.

mmarshall

Sorry, but that part I'm going to have to disagree with. The Acura Legend was a large, full-size car....later to become the RL. The ES250 competed much more with the smaller Acura Integra. The larger LS, of course, competed with the Legend, though Legend sales eventually tanked, while the LS was far more successful.

SW17LS

Well then you can take it up with the writers of the several books on the history of Lexus I've read lol.

The Legend was a little smaller than the LS, FWD. V6 powered. The RL same, not really an LS competitor. The issue was that dealers wanted a smaller FWD entry to capture that part of the market. Which the ES250 didn't do but that's why it existed before the ES300 was ready.

MattyG

The thing I find interesting is not so much that mainstream car brands have all the fancy doodads and various accoutrements of what the luxury automakers introduced at one point early in their model runs - but rather that even the most downmarket luxury strippo model, like say a BMW 320i still offers a driving experience unique to what the brand stands for. The perennial Bimmer-praising posers at C&D actually liked the basic 3. Yes the steering issue takes away from it but it's been remedied to a certain extent for 2017. If you want a go cart, you go to the 2 series.

The other thing is that the German trio always offer choice even if you realize they're ripping you off on some things and taking you to the cleaners with cheap plastic and fake leather. You can get an awd Audi, Bimmer or Merc wagon with various engine choices. You can get a turbo 4 or move up to a six, or turbo six and diesel. You can have a six speed manual or a 7-8 speed automatic. It simply comes down to wanting something in that platform and not necessarily saying you'll have to get a minivan or CUV.

Where the Germans have fallen down is reliability and material quality. Lots of cost-cutting and outsourcing.

UDel

The ES250 was a place holder and model to try to give the Lexus brand some volume and a more affordable entry,.it did not really compete well with the Acura Legend which was more upscale and sporty, got very good reviews, and sold very well. By the time the Lexus brand started in the US, a much larger more upscale Acura Legend was closely on its way. The 2nd Gen Legend competed much more favorably with the LS400 at the time, it was nearly as big, had most of its luxury features/build quality and even some features the LS400 didn't have, was quicker, sportier, and not that down on power with the 230hp version. The Acura Vigor and later TL were more of the ES competitors by that time.