Toys4RJill

Ford, GM, Chrysler are all domestic brands. Toyota and Honda are Japanese brands. MB, Audi and BMW are German brands. Are you disputing this?

The Corvette, Camaro SS and Mustang do not have the prestige of the later that you mentioned.

mmarshall

Did you read what I posted? They are domestic NAMEPLATES....yes, brands, if you prefer to use that term. But the vehicles themselves are designed, produced, and sold under a global system of operation. That's one of the reasons for national-sourced-parts-content data printed on the price-stickers.

Depends on what you mean by "prestige". All (per Consumer Reports and J.D. Power) rate very high in owner satisfaction....especially the 'Vette and Charger/Challenger. Even the auto mags, who test these cars at the limit on a track, admit that they rate far higher in bang for the buck than expensive competitors with European nameplates. The new Camaro SS, especially, with its Cadillac ATS-V-sourced chassis at half the Caddy's price, is an especially good bargain.

ssmoked

im not arguing the improved quality of Koreans cars, I was so impressed that I almost bought a current year Equus (30% off sticker). I'm referring to their struggle to hold value while competing with the Germans and Japs.

My original comment was meant to question Forbes valuations or residuals after 3 and 5 year mark for the Infiniti. The numbers are not realistic

mmarshall

You have a point with the Equus. One reason it loses so much value (from low sales) is that, though an excellent luxury sedan and comparing reasonably well to the Lexus LS, Hyundai has not done a good job marketing or promoting it. Then, on top of that, as Lincoln sedans are marketed at only a limited number of (selected) Ford dealerships, the Equus, as a new car, is sold only out of (selected) low-cost Hyundai shops....not the best way to market a 60-70K sedan. That will change, though (and maybe ultimate depreciation will be better) when the Equus starts being marketed soon at the all-new Genesis division, which will be split off from Hyundai.

Toys4RJill

mmarshall, you are mixing up where a vehicle is built and what the brand is. People who buy an American built Mercedes SUV do not view the vehicle as a US vehicle. They view the vehicle as such from a German brand. Same thing for Toyota, Lexus, Honda etc etc. A Toyota Corolla is not a domestic nameplate.

Depends on what? Prestige is prestige. Prestige does not have anything to do with owner satisfaction. A Mercedes in the United States is a prestige vehicle. A Chevrolet Corvette or Dodge Challenger are not.

mmarshall

True...as far as nameplates go. But to show how shallow perceived vision can be, where were those first Mercedes SUVs (ML's) made?...........in Tuscaloosa, AL, with American labor, and at least some American-sourced parts-content. Today, the Mercedes C-Class is built there.....under the same conditions. Some people may not consider that "American"....I do.


True on a brand-basis, but that means nothing in today's global auto economy. Many of their products are built here, with American parts/labor, and, for purposes of being exempt from tariffs, are economically considered "American" cars.

Depends on what? Prestige is prestige. Prestige does not have anything to do with owner satisfaction. A Mercedes in the United States is a prestige vehicle. A Chevrolet Corvette or Dodge Challenger are not.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Don't forget, many decades ago, Mercedes first GOT is prestige label from owner satisfaction. That changed after 2000, though, when competition from Lexus forced cutbacks in M-B quality and materials.

We're also getting rather off-topic...a Forbes list of cars to avoid. Their reasoning (whether one agree sor disagrees) is on the vehicles themselves....not their national nameplates.

Aron9000

^ Marshall, you need to remember where(and by this the nationality of the people behind the company) the car is designed/engineered/where the accountants reside as defining an import or domestic car now days. Yes that ML Mercedes SUV might be made by Bubba and crew in Alabama, but it was Hans and crew who designed it over in Stuttgart that makes in German. Same thing with that Dodge Ram truck, designed by George and crew in Auburn Hills, built by Jorge and crew in Saltillo Mexico. Now do people consider a Dodge Ram a Mexican truck or American truck???? Same thing with the Toyota Tundra built in Texas, people consider it a Japanese truck, not an American truck.

Anyways, getting back on topic, no reason the Suburban should be on that list. If you've ever driven one, it would surprise you how agile it handles and how well it brakes. It drives a lot smaller than what you'd think a 19 foot, 5000lb truck would drive. Something I can't say of the Expedition, it feels like you're driving the Queen Mary II compared to a Suburban(which is why I think GM dominates Ford in this segment).

I'm also sad to see the Focus and Fiesta on that list, as I always thought those were great looking cars in the wagon/hatch form(the sedan versions are horrid though). Also they felt like they were built pretty solid, had good handling, even in the base models. Plus they offered some really fun and crazy turbocharged hot models for just stupid low prices(a Fiesta ST is about 200hp for $20k!!!!). They had that very "Ford of Europe" look and feel about them, which was really refreshing after all the crap Escorts and the previous designed by a bunch of hateful **** accountants in Dearborn "America only" Focus of the 00's.

mmarshall

Oh, I agree with you on the public perception. My point was, though, that sometimes public perception is wrong. Many people think that Hyundai and Kia still makes junk, too, not realizing that those days are long gone. I dealt with one of them recently, on our condo board. She asked me for some new-vehicle buying advice for her needs, and when I mentioned a couple of Hyundai/Kia products, she looked at me incredulously and said she would not buy one, period.

So, you can lead a horse to water, but................

Agreed. In fact, in my first post in this thread, I also said that I wasn't sure the Suburban should be on the list, either. Though bulky, thirsty, and ponderous, it is a Godsend if you need to carry a lot of people and tow a boat at the same time.



Both the Focus and Fiesta, though, seem to have reliability problems, and initially had drivability issues with the automatic transmissions as well.

Aron9000

Yeah it sucks they aren't reliable, but I wonder if all the reliability complaints are related to the automatic transmissions. I know the autos in those cars are garbage, Ford was pushing the technology with the "PowerShift" transmission, it doesn't use a torque converter, instead its a dual clutch design, not sure if it works similar to the VW DSG auto box, but I think its the same idea. Anyways, Ford put out a half baked product with that transmission, they feel like they are slipping from the factory is the best way to describe the shift quality in those cars. Of course if I were to buy a Focus or Fiesta, I'd get one with a manual trans which has proven to be bullet-proof.

Toys4RJill

Those import brands are simply made in America, so what its an "American made Mercedes" or an "American assembled Mercedes"....people do not view that car as a domestic nameplate or car. They view it as a German car.

Toys4RJill

They are not "American" cars, they are assembled, or built in America. You are reading into way too much. You need to mention the "Built" or "Assembled" part.

And what is wrong with that? She doesn't want a Hyundai or Kia, there is nothing wrong with that. Its her money, her values, and her choices. She doesn't need to try one out if she does not want to. We also do not know the whole story, did you ask her what brands she likes? Did you ask her what brands she is used to? Did you ask her what brand of car she might currently own?

Toys4RJill

Very well said. The Toyota Tundra was so called "Designed in America" and "Built in Texas", but people will always consider it a Japanese truck. And so do I.

mmarshall

Well, by arguing with me, you yourself just proved one of the points I was trying to make.....that the auto business is truly global nowadays, and the very definition of an American, European, Korean, or Japanese product is muddled. That goes way above both you and me......even the industry and auto press can't always agree on what is what. Again, nationalities are generally limited to nameplates.

We did discuss it somewhat, but I'm not going to go into all the details here. There is no need to, and sometimes I respect a person's privacy, especially with financial matters. I only stated what I did to illustrate a point....that some persons have an outdated view of the industry, and either buy or not buy certain products for less than optimal or practical reasons. For instance, there was a poster here on Car Chat for a number of years (I won't mention the name or call-sign) who had a strong dislike of Honda and Acura products.......to the point where that poster wouldn't give them credit even when most people agreed it was due.

I notice that you yourself seem to be just the opposite....your mind and outlook seems to change quite often on specific vehicles. You will speak favorably of a car or truck one day, and criticize it the next....even of Toyota/Lexus products, which seems to be a favorite brand of you and your family. For instance, you once owned a Lexus CT, then told us you didn't like it and got something else.....yet still kept it as part of your call-sign (LexsCTjill). I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you......I'm not a big fan of the CT myself, and don't consider its refinement or road manners up to Lexus standards.

LexBob2

a agree that BMW, Audi, MB etc. are German brands. Toyota, Honda etc. are Japanese brands. Hyundai, Kia, South Korean brands. Where they are assembled and parts used, different subject.

mmarshall

Though it is several years old, here is a good article on the subject. Though the author makes a punctuation error here and there, It generally tells it like it is:


http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-214375

No such thing as an American car anymore

By GoPATS | Posted February 16, 2009 | Garden Grove, California


For all of you folks out there who do not the facts behind what goes into an automobile - both domestic and foreign. The only thing today that makes an American car "American" are simply the name/badge on it and where the profits ultimately end up.

A domestic car has parts made from all over the world, (Mexico, Canada, yes even China, Taiwan, and Japan). Everything is just pieced together on the assembly line here in the US, Mexico and Canda, yes Canada and Mexico! Talk about an American car being American when it's not even assembled in the US, let alone their parts are not even 50% American made if that.

So what makes an import not "American" ? It's just simply the name and where the profits go. Imports do consist of American internal parts as well as some cars even being assembled here in US. All vehicles, domestic and imports alike, contribute the the American economy with only 2 differences (name and profits).

Americans do work at both domestic and foreign auto plants providing a source of income for them and their families the last time I was aware. Auto dealerships that sell foreign cars are American owned and run. Insurance companies that insure foreign cars are American. Aftermarket retail parts stores and service shops are owned and operated by Americans that sell and service both domestics and foreign. Americans pay taxes to the state and local governments for both domestics and imports. So what are the only 2 differences? 1-the name/badge of the car and 2-the profit for domestics go to American executives and shareholders while we the American taxpayers and bailing them out so they can live a lavish lifestyle; profits for foreign automaker profits go overseas to pay their executives and shareholders so they can live a lavish lifestyle. It's not like we are going to ever see a dime of those profits or benefit from them anyway so why should we care? It's not that we should only buy "American" but we should be buying cars in general to help our fellow American workers across all industries and local and state governments generate income to help kickstart the US economy again (pending banks start lending to the average consumer again).

I've owned numerous cars during my lifetime and the majority of them are Japanese/German simply because it's preference and in my experience they are more stylish, efficient, and of better quality. Resale value holds way much better when switching cars too. Now I own a 2003 BMW 530i with the M sports package 5-speed manual shift. Although repairs/maintenance is costly it is choice and the American service shops are able to feed their family by me owning it, having it serviced, insured and paying taxes.


Bottom line, I am somewhat biased when it comes to domestics vs foreign because of bad experiences with owning domestics (95 Corscia, 87 TransAm, 85 Blazer, 2000 Taurus). However, the phrase "Buy American" is simply stupid and ignorant because most don't even know what goes into an "American" car these days... think about that for a while now and you'll see that buying American is just an ignorant phrase.