Toyota building new twin-turbo V6, to appear in GS, LS
07-26-16, 09:28 PM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
Nobody cares what Lexus has under development, at this point they are way behind. As i mentioned V6 turbos are last decade news - everyone is moving to Inline 6s!
If you don't get why turbos are modern - well they offer a ton of horsepower and torque plus amazing fuel economy. Toyota had one of the best ever in the 2JZ.
Go drive any turbo 6/8cyl BMW, MB, Audi then drive v6 / v8 lexus - huge difference.
07-26-16, 09:47 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
I would have no clue how long it takes to develop a new engine. Why would I know that? I'm not an engine designer.
Ive driven them all...the turbos are fine, I prefer the sound and feel of a NA engine. It wouldn't be a major selling point for me either way. Just because "everybody" is doing something is a company outdated because they aren't following? Not necessarily.
You clealry arent a Lexus owner or enthusiast, you've chosen a vehicle that impresses you and that's fine. Plenty of people like how Lexus puts a car together clearly.
Ive driven them all...the turbos are fine, I prefer the sound and feel of a NA engine. It wouldn't be a major selling point for me either way. Just because "everybody" is doing something is a company outdated because they aren't following? Not necessarily.
You clealry arent a Lexus owner or enthusiast, you've chosen a vehicle that impresses you and that's fine. Plenty of people like how Lexus puts a car together clearly.
07-26-16, 10:12 PM
#48
Lexus Champion
07-26-16, 10:15 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
07-26-16, 11:47 PM
#50
2000, CTJill & Steve are right you know.
Lexus has had 2.0, 2.5 & 3.0 in-line sixes with twin turbos in the past.
Click here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Soarer
Look for the 1986-1991 & 1991-2000 Soarer with 2.0 and 3.0 in-line sixes with twin turbos
2.0 I6 TT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_G_engine#1G-GTE
3.0 I6 ST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_M_engine#7M-GTE
2.5 I6 TT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine#1JZ-GTE
They are also right that engine development rarely starts from scratch; it is a continuing evolution of existing designs.
They are also right that Toyota will keep completely secret their road map.
They've probably been working on turbos for years, without letting the press know.
Lexus has had 2.0, 2.5 & 3.0 in-line sixes with twin turbos in the past.
Click here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Soarer
Look for the 1986-1991 & 1991-2000 Soarer with 2.0 and 3.0 in-line sixes with twin turbos
2.0 I6 TT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_G_engine#1G-GTE
3.0 I6 ST: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_M_engine#7M-GTE
2.5 I6 TT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine#1JZ-GTE
They are also right that engine development rarely starts from scratch; it is a continuing evolution of existing designs.
They are also right that Toyota will keep completely secret their road map.
They've probably been working on turbos for years, without letting the press know.
07-27-16, 12:07 AM
#51
Lead Lap
V6's have plenty of advantages over I6's. The only reason MB is returning to I6's is because they wanted to enable parts commonality with the new I4's. This is a switch as they used to focus on parts commonality between V6's and V8's; just a sign of the times.
Last edited by TangoRed; 07-27-16 at 12:36 AM.
07-27-16, 05:46 AM
#52
^^ I would not be surprised if the 400 hp / 325 lb-ft 3.0L V6 twin turbo engine detailed at the beginning of this thread actually started from that TS050 engine and Toyota's TMG engineering arm in Germany. Just my speculation but I'd be excited to read confirmation of that.
If Toyota's upcoming 3.0L V6 TT is meant to work in the new Supra as well as a few Lexus models I would fully expect them to have developed it from a racing program... or at least in conjunction with one.
If Toyota's upcoming 3.0L V6 TT is meant to work in the new Supra as well as a few Lexus models I would fully expect them to have developed it from a racing program... or at least in conjunction with one.
Toyota confirms hybrid turbo engine, for Supra?
Toyota has a new turbocharged hybrid engine under development, and the timing hints that it could be for the next-gen Supra. Toyota Motorsport GmbH, which does engineering on the company’s endurance racers and rally cars, is handling work on the prototype. The division’s prowess on the track could be the perfect match for creating the sports car’s powerplant.
Rob Leupen, Vice President and Director of Business Operations at Toyota Motorsport, dropped some tiny hints in an interview with AutoRAI. He confirmed the turbocharged hybrid engine’s development but refused to say which vehicle it was for. He also didn’t discuss the powerplant’s displacement or cylinder arrangement.
According to Leupen, Toyota Motorsport routinely does prototype work for production models, and then sends the developments to Japan for further refinement. It usually takes three to five years for the division’s projects to hit the market, he indicates.
We can’t be certain this engine is really for the Supra, but the three to five year timeline fits well with rumors about the upcoming coupe. Many reports suggest the sports car would be available with a turbocharged hybrid, and at least one hints there could be a powertrain without electrical assistance. Speculation also suggests the Supra would arrive with the successor to the BMW Z4 in 2018. Assuming the powerplant’s development is still in the early stages, Toyota could conceivably have it ready for 2019 – a year after the conventional version’s debut. A staggered launch would let the automaker keep the buzz going a little longer around the new performance car.
Toyota has a new turbocharged hybrid engine under development, and the timing hints that it could be for the next-gen Supra. Toyota Motorsport GmbH, which does engineering on the company’s endurance racers and rally cars, is handling work on the prototype. The division’s prowess on the track could be the perfect match for creating the sports car’s powerplant.
Rob Leupen, Vice President and Director of Business Operations at Toyota Motorsport, dropped some tiny hints in an interview with AutoRAI. He confirmed the turbocharged hybrid engine’s development but refused to say which vehicle it was for. He also didn’t discuss the powerplant’s displacement or cylinder arrangement.
According to Leupen, Toyota Motorsport routinely does prototype work for production models, and then sends the developments to Japan for further refinement. It usually takes three to five years for the division’s projects to hit the market, he indicates.
We can’t be certain this engine is really for the Supra, but the three to five year timeline fits well with rumors about the upcoming coupe. Many reports suggest the sports car would be available with a turbocharged hybrid, and at least one hints there could be a powertrain without electrical assistance. Speculation also suggests the Supra would arrive with the successor to the BMW Z4 in 2018. Assuming the powerplant’s development is still in the early stages, Toyota could conceivably have it ready for 2019 – a year after the conventional version’s debut. A staggered launch would let the automaker keep the buzz going a little longer around the new performance car.
07-27-16, 07:19 AM
#53
Lexus is decades behind in engine development.
Its sad that Hyandai / Kia will have a turbo V6 out before Lexus.
BMW is on the 3rd Generation of its Turbo Inline 6.
Audi, MB, Jaguar, Maserati etc all have Turbo or Supercharged 6s for close to 10 years now!
Honestly this is a disgrace for Lexus - and where is the turbo V8?????
The fact they are planning to put the same engine from RCf and GSf into the new LC coupe shows how bad their engine development is.
Its sad that Hyandai / Kia will have a turbo V6 out before Lexus.
BMW is on the 3rd Generation of its Turbo Inline 6.
Audi, MB, Jaguar, Maserati etc all have Turbo or Supercharged 6s for close to 10 years now!
Honestly this is a disgrace for Lexus - and where is the turbo V8?????
The fact they are planning to put the same engine from RCf and GSf into the new LC coupe shows how bad their engine development is.
Last edited by Diesel350; 07-27-16 at 07:22 AM.
07-27-16, 07:50 AM
#54
Pole Position
You are dodging my question which is - how many years in your estimation does it take to develop a BRAND NEW engine?
Nobody cares what Lexus has under development, at this point they are way behind. As i mentioned V6 turbos are last decade news - everyone is moving to Inline 6s!
If you don't get why turbos are modern - well they offer a ton of horsepower and torque plus amazing fuel economy. Toyota had one of the best ever in the 2JZ.
Go drive any turbo 6/8cyl BMW, MB, Audi then drive v6 / v8 lexus - huge difference.
Nobody cares what Lexus has under development, at this point they are way behind. As i mentioned V6 turbos are last decade news - everyone is moving to Inline 6s!
If you don't get why turbos are modern - well they offer a ton of horsepower and torque plus amazing fuel economy. Toyota had one of the best ever in the 2JZ.
Go drive any turbo 6/8cyl BMW, MB, Audi then drive v6 / v8 lexus - huge difference.
07-27-16, 08:29 AM
#55
Lexus Champion
Turbo engines promise power on demand AND fuel economy -- on paper or on government fuel economy tests (and we all know that the European fuel economy test which the German automakers use is pretty well government-sanctioned lying). But how many current turbo engines actually deliver both power AND fuel economy? If you want power, you will use more fuel as the turbo spools and forces more air into the engine; if you want economy, you don't want the engine to be under boost.
If you try for fuel economy by using an undersized engine (like using a 2-litre 4-cylinder in a full-size luxury sedan like the BMW 7-Series), it will not be powerful enough on its own to pull that heavy car, so it will be constantly under boost, destroying any fuel economy you had hoped for.
It is difficult to balance the two.
How is that different from Toyota/Lexus that has slapped a new valvetrain on an existing V8, V6 or I4 engine block? This new valvetrain technology gives you a fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle at low load and a more powerful Otto cycle at high loads. That is effectively 2 different engines in one. No other manufacturer -- not MB, not BMW, not VW/Audi have that right now.
So Lexus engines are 20 years behind the times?
The older V6s were 90deg V6s -- far from ideal for a V6 -- to allow for commonality with its V8s. The current I6s allow for commonality with its new range of economy I4s and I3s. Times change and MB has done what it needs to in order to save engine development costs.
07-27-16, 08:58 AM
#56
acting like turbos are some new thing, they are only being pushed hard because of stupid emission and mpg requirements that dont favor larger displacement engines. If turbos were superior why isnt every car turboed a long time ago. Turbos have their own drawbacks.
07-27-16, 10:19 AM
#57
Other car companies like Hyundai, MB and BMW source all their turbo technology from outside companies like BorgWarner. Lexus develops and manufactures all of their turbo technology from the ground up all inhouse. Lexus controls its turbocharger from raw material processing to installation in its vehicle. I'm sure if Lexus just decided to use an outside company to source all their turbo technology they would have had more widespread turbo cars 10 yrs ago too. Lexus lives and dies by quality, durability, and reliability. By making it's turbocharger technology themselves Lexus controls its own QDR destiny. This is actually a genius strategy. Not a disgrace. A disgrace is BMW's turbo engines. Nothing but noisy and unrealiable.
Definitely a reason the 2.0T took so long to come to frutiion. Lexus [almost always] dots all the i's and crosses all the t's before releasing them to consumers. The upcoming six and eight cylinder engines should be a great real world balance of performance, efficiency, and refinement.
07-27-16, 10:28 AM
#58
Many new turbo engines just slap a turbocharger on an old engine block and call it a new engine.
How is that different from Toyota/Lexus that has slapped a new valvetrain on an existing V8, V6 or I4 engine block? This new valvetrain technology gives you a fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle at low load and a more powerful Otto cycle at high loads. That is effectively 2 different engines in one. No other manufacturer -- not MB, not BMW, not VW/Audi have that right now.
So Lexus engines are 20 years behind the times?
How is that different from Toyota/Lexus that has slapped a new valvetrain on an existing V8, V6 or I4 engine block? This new valvetrain technology gives you a fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle at low load and a more powerful Otto cycle at high loads. That is effectively 2 different engines in one. No other manufacturer -- not MB, not BMW, not VW/Audi have that right now.
So Lexus engines are 20 years behind the times?
07-27-16, 11:19 AM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
Turbo engines: The more things change, the more they stay the same. Turbochargers have been around for a long, long time.
Turbo engines promise power on demand AND fuel economy -- on paper or on government fuel economy tests (and we all know that the European fuel economy test which the German automakers use is pretty well government-sanctioned lying). But how many current turbo engines actually deliver both power AND fuel economy? If you want power, you will use more fuel as the turbo spools and forces more air into the engine; if you want economy, you don't want the engine to be under boost.
If you try for fuel economy by using an undersized engine (like using a 2-litre 4-cylinder in a full-size luxury sedan like the BMW 7-Series), it will not be powerful enough on its own to pull that heavy car, so it will be constantly under boost, destroying any fuel economy you had hoped for.
It is difficult to balance the two.
Many new turbo engines just slap a turbocharger on an old engine block and call it a new engine.
How is that different from Toyota/Lexus that has slapped a new valvetrain on an existing V8, V6 or I4 engine block? This new valvetrain technology gives you a fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle at low load and a more powerful Otto cycle at high loads. That is effectively 2 different engines in one. No other manufacturer -- not MB, not BMW, not VW/Audi have that right now.
So Lexus engines are 20 years behind the times?
MB's 6-cylinders are modular engines, both the older V6s and the newer I6s.
The older V6s were 90deg V6s -- far from ideal for a V6 -- to allow for commonality with its V8s. The current I6s allow for commonality with its new range of economy I4s and I3s. Times change and MB has done what it needs to in order to save engine development costs.
Turbo engines promise power on demand AND fuel economy -- on paper or on government fuel economy tests (and we all know that the European fuel economy test which the German automakers use is pretty well government-sanctioned lying). But how many current turbo engines actually deliver both power AND fuel economy? If you want power, you will use more fuel as the turbo spools and forces more air into the engine; if you want economy, you don't want the engine to be under boost.
If you try for fuel economy by using an undersized engine (like using a 2-litre 4-cylinder in a full-size luxury sedan like the BMW 7-Series), it will not be powerful enough on its own to pull that heavy car, so it will be constantly under boost, destroying any fuel economy you had hoped for.
It is difficult to balance the two.
Many new turbo engines just slap a turbocharger on an old engine block and call it a new engine.
How is that different from Toyota/Lexus that has slapped a new valvetrain on an existing V8, V6 or I4 engine block? This new valvetrain technology gives you a fuel-efficient Atkinson cycle at low load and a more powerful Otto cycle at high loads. That is effectively 2 different engines in one. No other manufacturer -- not MB, not BMW, not VW/Audi have that right now.
So Lexus engines are 20 years behind the times?
MB's 6-cylinders are modular engines, both the older V6s and the newer I6s.
The older V6s were 90deg V6s -- far from ideal for a V6 -- to allow for commonality with its V8s. The current I6s allow for commonality with its new range of economy I4s and I3s. Times change and MB has done what it needs to in order to save engine development costs.
I dont understand your frustration. What's so outdated with dual fuel injection? How many automakers have that? Whats so outdated with a variable timing system that switches between otto and atkinson cycle? Not difficult to bolt a snail on an engine and let it ride. Real world fuel economy has not lived up to what's on the window sticker. Does a turbo engine produce gobs of power? Yes it does but why is that surprising when that was the case almost 100 years ago?
Other car companies like Hyundai, MB and BMW source all their turbo technology from outside companies like BorgWarner. Lexus develops and manufactures all of their turbo technology from the ground up all inhouse. Lexus controls its turbocharger from raw material processing to installation in its vehicle. I'm sure if Lexus just decided to use an outside company to source all their turbo technology they would have had more widespread turbo cars 10 yrs ago too. Lexus lives and dies by quality, durability, and reliability. By making it's turbocharger technology themselves Lexus controls its own QDR destiny. This is actually a genius strategy. Not a disgrace. A disgrace is BMW's turbo engines. Nothing but noisy and unrealiable.
While I will agree that their current Lexus models such as the Ls and ES are long in the tooth for engines, but they still provide the classic Lexus experience.
I am sure the new upcoming Toyota engine will be fully competitive