situman

Toyota and Lexus used to be at or near the top. How have they fallen. Then again I'm not surprised as Toyota products generally have cheap and flimsy interiors now.

SW17LS

You're not understanding what JD Power's Initial Quality Survey (IQS) is. Its not comparable to the data that is provided by Consumer Reports. It looks at an entirely different subject.

The IQS is essentially a measure of "how satisfied are people with their new car?". It tracks concerns or issues over the first year of ownership, and its not really a "reliability" measure. If I have issues with cupholders, or seat comfort, or infotainment design those things count as "issues" and the score is the number of "issues" reported per 100 vehicles.

Consumer Reports data is entirely different. They're tracking specific reliability data from their subscribers and comparing it to the average data for a vehicle of that model year.

The closest similar report available from JD Power is the 3 year or 5 year dependability studies.

CR also only surveys their subscribers, which leads to a fair amount of population bias. Are CR subscribers a representative population of all owners? JD Power surveys a sample of all owners.

Its not really that Lexus and Toyota have "fallen" its that many other carmakers are doing a much better job. It used to be that there were very few companies that had an IQS score under 100, and Lexus was consistently one of those. Well, their IQS score is 96, its just that 96 isn't as great a score as it used to be.

Here is 2014, note that only 4 brands have an IQS score under 100:



2013, note its only 5:



Note that for 2015, there are 9! Also note that Lexus' score is pretty close to being the same. They're just standing still while others are dramatically improving.

BrownPride

Meh I don't place any value into these initial quality studies. Long-term reliability is much more important and telling. Not taking anything away from Kia because they've been making some great cars as of late, but I still believe w/ absolute conviction that Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are the most reliable vehicles in the world.

Stormwind

This crap is so easy to scam I would not believe anything coming from this.

Back in the day when I bought my gs (and I suppose lexus still does this maybe to a lesser extent) the sales guy always made it a priority for me to fill out the survey and give it all 5 stars once I get them, even offering me a lot of free stuff including a free oil change. So when I come in for my free stuff they can help me "fill out" the survey while they change my oil . It's so easy I don't even have to do a thing!

chikoo

Drove a Kia Sedona rental for 7 days last week. Apart from a continual squeak from the rear cargo area this van was amazing to say the least.

SW17LS

Totally different surveys. That's the customer satisfaction survey. These are mailed out by JD Power.

SW17LS

Long term quality though begins at initial quality.

As to the sentence I've bolded. Please don't think I'm being snarky, I'm legitimately curious...how much data would you have to see that shows thats really no longer the case in order for it to shake your convictions?

Brand perception lags behind reality. Your belief that Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura make the "most reliable vehicles in the world" comes from your own experience and worldview, but the data doesn't really support that position anymore.

Its not that they no longer make very reliable well made cars, they do, its just that quality is not as rare as it once was, and companies are doing better.

Here is 2016's JD Power Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), these are 2013 model year vehicles:



Yes, Lexus is #1...but look at the rest of the list. Before you get to Toyota, you have Porsche and Buick. Before you get to Honda you have GMC and Chevrolet. Look how tightly spaced the results are in terms of issues. Also note the gap between Lexus and the next manufacturers.

As a comparison this is 2014, so this is 2011 MY. Look how big the gap is for Lexus, and look at how much lower Lexus' score is than in 2016:



Also note that Toyota and Honda while near the top, even here are not far and away the best.

JD Power top vehicles for VDS 2016 car segment:



How many winners are Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura models? 3 out of 9.

For SUV/Truck/Van segments:



How many winners are Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura models? 4 out of 10.

Like I said, nobody is denying that they make very dependable cars, but to say that today, in 2016 they "are the most reliable vehicles in the world"? Theres no data that I have seen that backs that statement up. Bottom line is lots of carmakers are making very reliable vehicles today.

mmarshall

Buick has been the top domestic brand, quality-wise, for several years, both with J.D.Power and Consumer Reports. That doesn't seem to be changing.

What IS surprising, IMO, is the huge gulf between Ford and Lincoln. While not as similar to each other today in design as the last-generations were, many of them today still use the same platforms and are built in the same assembly plants.

Another interesting divide is Dodge Ram trucks ranking ranking fairly high, while the rest of the Dodge lineup bumps out Fiat and Land Rover at the very bottom.

BrownPride

The reason I am not fond of these studies by J.D. Power is that they tend to be inconsistent year-by-year. Also, saying "problems per 100 vehicles" does not assess for the severity of the "problems." Two brands could be in the Top 5 but one has minor problems and one has severe issues.

Some brands are consistent year-by-year in their rankings but many are not. Domestic brands have been touting their high finishes in JD Power rankings for decades yet they still have an overall reputation for poor reliability. Stereotypes and reputations, while not 100% true in all cases, are indeed rooted in truth; and fact is that they are still generally below industry average. I find it hard to believe that Buicks are very dependable vehicles when they share so much underlying architecture and components with other global GM products which are ranked much lower in dependability surveys. The Enclave for example is a Traverse/Acadia under the skin, the Verano is a Cruze, and I believe that new convertible is an Opel.

Resale values are a factor I value when it comes to vehicle/brand reliability. Of course they are tied to many things not just reliability but there's a reason why Honda and Toyota depreciate far less.

mmarshall

Believe it. My Verano has been virtually bulletproof for four years. All Buicks, overall, are average or better in reliability.

Actually, GMC and Chevy don't rank that far below Buick in the latest survey. Cadillac does, to an extent.



True.

Only in an extremely vague sense....a very loose connection to the Delta II platform. It is, in fact, actually a rebadged German Opel Astra, except for the drivetrain and sound insulation.



Yep. Same platform as the Astra/Verano, except for a different engine and additional frame-stiffening. Opel/Holden versions of the convertible are sold in Europe and Australia.

SW17LS

JD Power is but one source of data. There is no data that I have seen from any source that supports the idea that today "Toyota and Honda are THE most reliable cars on earth". If you know of some data that shows that, please post it.

Toyota and Honda don't even rank the highest in resale value universally, but that's not a measure of reliability at all IMHO...

mmarshall

Toyota and Honda once, in the past, did rule the reliability charts. But it's not so much a factor of them declining as it is the fact that other manufacturers woke up and started producing better vehicles.....in some cases, better than what Toyota and Honda are producing. Audi's improvement, for example, in the last few years, has been nothing short of stunning.....simiiar to that of Hyundai/Kia from 2000 to about 2005.

SW17LS

I agree 100%, in fact I said that several posts up. The rest of the industry has really caught up with them.

BrownPride

Well people don't like quoting Consumer Reports but they routinely have the good old Japanese brands at the top of their rankings.

We will have to agree to disagree. I have been burned too many times by the Big 3 and have seen then tout their "high quality/reliability in x survey" over the years only to see them continue to make poor quality products and go belly up. I grew up in Michigan w/ a lot of connections to the industry and know very well how these companies operate, reliability is not their priority.

SW17LS

At the top, but are they above all "the most reliable cars made"? Plenty of other companies are making cars just as reliable is my point.