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I don't know that it's about a clunk or clank. Yeah, I had cars like that. Horrible domestic brands. I think it's about getting things right. FCA has a lot of things right, but they don't care about details and simple engineering questions.
The problem is that people are paying big bucks for the Jeep Grand Cherokee and they expect this sort of effortless, moving of dials etc to perform the task. If this was a Jeep Patriot or a Cherokee thing, you can understand that.
Here you have the Jeep flagship and it seems to have some sort of issue. And the only fix is some sort of primitive fix that involves going back to 1990's tech to solve it. If I pay for a premium vehicle I sure don't want a Saturn shift gate on it. I think that's unacceptable for the price.
Even my Mercedes has this shifter but it goes to P automatically when I take my key out, and hill descent braking that keeps the brakes on when the car is on an incline in D or R.
i really don't get modern car designs, if there's already a shifter ****, why even bother making it some button? i mean, were people actually complaining that everything needed to become electronic and indirect? and don't even get me started on the new MDX "shifter"
my mom who is the main driver of the MDX even thinks it's stupid to get rid of the mechanically linked shifter ****. still didn't stop her from getting this built in alabama piece of junk though... and now as it turns out the electronic shifter has even killed someone. is pressing a button like this really "less effort"?
^Agreed, nothing was ever wrong with a mechanical lever/link to the transmission. They didn't break or try to run you over like the needlessly complex electronics we have now.
But we all demand the latest and greatest tech and it comes mostly from other industries or sectors. Much of the auto tech we are benefiting from comes from aviation and it is a proven, safe way of travel. In the cockpit of your regional jet, you will see a lot of tech similar to what you see in a modern car.
I can't say that one celebrity who died is the symbol of a defect by a manufacturer. But why do we not care about all the individuals who died because of the GM ignition switch issue? Takata airbag injuries?
Yes a celebrity died, and his death at 27 is tragic. But ask the parents of young people who died due to any number of auto manufacturer cost cutting defects, and you will get tales of woe and high school prom pics etc.
^Agreed, nothing was ever wrong with a mechanical lever/link to the transmission. They didn't break or try to run you over like the needlessly complex electronics we have now.
Mechanical shift levers and [p]leather boots around them may be familiar, but they waste space, are clunky, and don't look clean. I have no doubt they will all be gone soon.
I have a JGC with the shifter in question. Once or twice I've not set it in the right gear, but it's really no biggie, and on hills I always set the park brake before exiting, so no issues. FCA Had sent me a card about the 'issue' BEFORE this accident saying they're working on a change plus sent a dummie's card on the right procedures to operate the shifter.
Or they could just use an ordinary shifter which is what they chose to do going forward. I don't understand the fascination behind these weird shift levers.
I'm all for technology, but I want tech solutions that provide a tangible benefit. Having owned this specific vehicle with a regular shifter and with this electronic shifter, I don't see how it provides any benefit. The console is the same, no space is saved. You still can't do anything with the console space. If it were a column mounted shifter like MB uses that would be a point. But a rotary **** or this joystick saves no space. A row of buttons takes up the same amount of space as a shifter gate. At least when they're on the dash like Lincoln it saves console space. But the Hondas and Acuras, they're in the same spot a shifter gate would be...no space saving. It's technology for the sake of technology. Different for the sake of being different and at least in this case it's clear that it's created a safety concern with no potential upside at all.
As Matty posted, if you look at MB's electronic shifter or BMWs, or what I had in my Prius, Park gear is selected with a separate button which created no confusion over selecting any gear other than park when trying to select park.
We see this in other areas. Lack of real buttons, touch capacitive buttons, what did the industry learn? Sometimes an actual button works the best.
Some things are tools and they work fine and most reliably when they work the way they always have. What's next, a joystick for the steering wheel? Why not reverse the gas and the brake pedals? Hey, it's different...
We have a 2014 BMW with the electronic shifter. After a year and a half, I still don't find it very intuitive but after reading here I do appreciate he dedicated Park button. We just bought an Audi A6 and thankfully it has a conventional shifter..
Those shifters don't have mechanical linkages or positions that pertains to gears? I'm not familiar with Chrysler's transmissions, but it doesn't look like it has enough physical space to have different positions per gear. In other words, it requires a physically different position between neutral and drive in most cars, whereas it doesn't seem to be the case for this transmission.
How does it work? Press the button then move the lever until it reaches the desired gear, releasing it just shoves it back to the physical center position?
My educated guess is that very few (if any) modern transmissions -- even the ones with traditional-looking gearshift levers -- are mechanical. The lever itself is mechanical but the connection from the base of the lever to the transmission is electronic.
The Lincoln and Honda/Acura pushbuttons; the BMW and Toyota, and MB stubby lever; and the Chrysler and Jaguar dial are just more obviously electronic.
Originally Posted by MattyG
The FCA gear shift design. No park button and possibly no park/lock shift function.
Thanks! I was wondering about the BMW lever and the very similar Toyota one (used on the Prius and soon to be used on the Lexus LC), and whether there were any problems.
Originally Posted by Stroock639
i really don't get modern car designs, if there's already a shifter ****, why even bother making it some button? i mean, were people actually complaining that everything needed to become electronic and indirect? and don't even get me started on the new MDX "shifter"
my mom who is the main driver of the MDX even thinks it's stupid to get rid of the mechanically linked shifter ****. still didn't stop her from getting this built in alabama piece of junk though... and now as it turns out the electronic shifter has even killed someone. is pressing a button like this really "less effort"?
I see this as another example of Honda's me-too attitude when it comes to automotive technology. It seems to me that Honda -- which was once known for their ergonomic instrument panel and controls designs -- does these things merely to show off that, yes, they can do it. Examples that I remember include the Gen1 MDX with its large central display screen that pushed their HVAC controls into a tiny panel of pushbuttons that was difficult to find; it includes the Acuras with the sea of pushbuttons; and now this terrible push-pull transmission gear selector.
Originally Posted by MattyG
I don't know that it's about a clunk or clank. Yeah, I had cars like that. Horrible domestic brands. I think it's about getting things right. FCA has a lot of things right, but they don't care about details and simple engineering questions.
The problem is that people are paying big bucks for the Jeep Grand Cherokee and they expect this sort of effortless, moving of dials etc to perform the task. If this was a Jeep Patriot or a Cherokee thing, you can understand that.
Here you have the Jeep flagship and it seems to have some sort of issue. And the only fix is some sort of primitive fix that involves going back to 1990's tech to solve it. If I pay for a premium vehicle I sure don't want a Saturn shift gate on it. I think that's unacceptable for the price.
Originally Posted by MattyG
But we all demand the latest and greatest tech and it comes mostly from other industries or sectors. Much of the auto tech we are benefiting from comes from aviation and it is a proven, safe way of travel. In the cockpit of your regional jet, you will see a lot of tech similar to what you see in a modern car.
I can't say that one celebrity who died is the symbol of a defect by a manufacturer. But why do we not care about all the individuals who died because of the GM ignition switch issue? Takata airbag injuries?
Yes a celebrity died, and his death at 27 is tragic. But ask the parents of young people who died due to any number of auto manufacturer cost cutting defects, and you will get tales of woe and high school prom pics etc.
Yes, the latest automotive technology may come from aviation and aerospace but there is a great difference and that is human factors engineering. A lot of ergonomic engineering design work has gone into the human-machine interface on aircraft but it seems to be hit-and-miss in road-going vehicles. Automakers like BMW and Toyota seem to have put great thought into the design of the transmission gear selectors, whereas FCA seems to have missed sending their human factors engineers back to school to learn about the newest electronics interfaces.
The type of transmission lever used in this JGC is not a defect. It does work, after all. The problem is that the design engineers did not fully think through the "what-ifs": Can it confuse the driver to think they are in a Park when they are not? Are there any other indicator lights or aural notifications that could be provided to inform the driver? Are there any safety-related interlocks that could or should be provided -- perhaps an automatic parking brake, a separate, deliberate Park button, etc.?
It remains to be seen whether this was the cause of his death but it certainly appears that way.
This is just another reason why I dislike anything associated with Chrysler. Many other brands like BMW and the like have similar shifter designs but they are designed to be fail-proof. Jeep cheaped out and relied completely on 100% error-free compliance by owners in their shifter design. I'm sure engineers saw this coming but the bean counters (as typical of the Big 3) were more concerned about penny pinching in the short-term. Fail-safes are needed in any field, whether it be Aeronautical engineering to efficient and error-free care for patients in hospitals. You cannot rely on the premise that there will be no human error!
It amazes me that Chrysler still exists. They're literally surviving on the Ram and a bunch of unreliable outdated and poorly-engineered Jeeps.
It amazes me that Chrysler still exists. They're literally surviving on the Ram and a bunch of unreliable outdated and poorly-engineered Jeeps.
Let me put it to you this way, even with this shifter issue I still wish I still had my 2014 Grand Cherokee. Its a dumb shifter...they realized that, recalled the affected vehicles and replaced the shifter for 2016. Doesn't negate all the good aspects of the vehicle.
It amazes me that Chrysler still exists. They're literally surviving on the Ram and a bunch of unreliable outdated and poorly-engineered Jeeps.
We get it, you hate Chrysler.
As SW15LS, myself. and a number of other actual owners of the most recent/current generation Grand Cherokee will attest. it's far from "unreliable outdated and poorly-engineered"
No company makes a perfect vehicle, and more than ever, many OEMs are somewhat limited to what suppliers they work with. Having worked extensively throughout various parts of the OEM world I don't think this is a "penny pinching" move as assume it to be. They didn't have to move to an electronic shift such as the one that they did. There's an added cost for those over a traditional lever that existed with the 2011 to 2013MY vehicle.
I'd still take my former Grand Cherokee over a Toyota 4Runner.
06-20-16, 08:28 PM
