MattyG

Only $1750? December isn't exactly a fast month for any dealer.

It's obvious that BMW moved to soften the 3 and 5 series because of an aging Baby Boomer market in the U.S. That's why the 1 series and 2 series showed up. And for diehard fans of the 3 and 5, you go with the M. Those quiche-eating Bimmer-loving yuppies of the 1980,s and 90's are now retiring. They had their fun.

Lexus answered with the IS, RC and GS. And promptly put the f-ugliest grills on them, grinning at you trying to convince younger buyers how edgy your vehicles are... even on a Lexus GX yet - a box that looked functional until someone put the cheese grater on it.

mmarshall

The irony is, though, that the previous 3 and 5-series, before the conversion to electric steering and a revised chassis, were NOT harsh, at least in my book, except for the M versions. I found most of the non-M versions to be excellent (even superb) balances of ride/handling. BMW decided to fix what wasn't broken....and the result speaks for itself.

Don't bet on it. Once a car enthusiast, always a car enthusiast. And they are the ones b**ching about the new BMWs the most. I'm a Boomer myself....and if I had to live my life without sampling, test-driving, or reviewing cars, you might as well toss me in prison.

peteharvey

Yes, the previous generation of 5 and 3 Series had superb combination of handling and ride.
The latest 5 and 3 Series neither handle well, nor do they ride as well as previously.
They have obviously put on a lot of exterior size and weight, though I find interior size still trails Benz.
Even the new M5 has been criticized for handling and ride.
I guess they can't hide that extra size and bulk.
However there is absolutely nothing wrong with BMW catering their cars for comfort!
All four marques including Audi make lovely cars; each in different ways.
They are all equally good to me.

@ MattyG.
Styling is very subjective.
The ways Lexus sales a going, the spindle grill can't be that bad.
I find the spindle grill quite attractive; if you look hard, you will see spindle grill in Benz too.
It stands out from the hexagonal grills used in Hyundais, Subarus and Fords etc.

peteharvey

Sales is directly important to calculate total revenue, less expenses, for company net profits.

However it is interesting how sales is also used to "imply" quality.
BMW goes to all the trouble to sell as much as possible before the calendar year ends, because sales figures imply quality, when in fact sales doesn't necessarily mean quality at all.

However we will never be able to stop sales from implying quality.

And as far as quality goes, overall all the marques are much of a muchness.
Each marque excels in different ways, but overall, they are basically equal.

Nothing wrong with BMW trading handling for size & comfort at all.
Overall, BMW is still a great marque.
What they lose in handling, they make up for in comfort.
Ditto, and vice versa to Lexus.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i don't even get a race for volume in luxury. i mean if any one of these brands sold 3x what they do today those vehicles would be 'everywhere' and would hardly seem 'luxurious' at that point.

in other words, higher volume, especially through adding more 'low end' models, just means diluting the brand.

i think bmw has been clever with the gran coupe models to add some utility (and better looks on the 4 in particular) to add volume without going cheaper.

lexus made good moves by adding rc and nx which obviously brought the volume up. they just need to get rid of the CT which should be a toyota.

MattyG

Yes the younger demographic is definitely enjoying the spindle. And on the RC, IS and upcoming LC - it looks great. But when you start seeing it as a company wide thing on other models, it doesn't work. On the edgy F models it does add something.


Yeah, car makers will do all sorts of things to appeal to a wider market and sometimes that means fooling with something that didn't need fixing.

I do see a few older guys driving quite "vigorously". Spanked a grandpa in his twin turbo 535xi last year while he was showing off with his grandson in the passenger seat. So yeah they are out there. (And no I did not instigate, he deliberately challenged).

Mr. Burns

Power is not the be all and end all of "sporty".

The GS-F while down on power compared to the F10 M5 has been compared to the E39 M5 in how it drives. The E39 is widely regarded as one of the best if not the best M5s, and being down on power compared to a new M5 doesn't take anything away from that.

peteharvey

Who told you that the new 5 & 3 Series only handles well on M5 & M3 sports trim?
If you read countless comparisons between the M5 and E63 AMG lately, you will find that not only did BMW stuff up with the regular bread and butter 520i/528i/535i and 320i/328i/335i's handling, but they also stuffed up with the M5's handling too!!!
See all the links below which criticize the M5's handling.

Many comment on the extra weight.
With me, it's either the extra weight, spring or damper settings that's affecting the car.
When a chassis fails, it fails; stiffening it up in M5 trim doesn't rid the extra weight.

So BMW's handling has gone backwards, but their size and comfort has moved forwards, as BMW says that it has been designed to appeal to a wider range of buyers.
"Overall", BMW is still the same great marque, but with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.
Presently, it's actually Lexus with the GS etc, who is the handling king, but of course, that handling compromises the ride.

Thus, I find this business of certain people like MattyG putting down Lexus as being America's biggest selling 2015 luxury import, but just selling RX/ES/NX's based on front wheel drive Toyota cross-platforms, and with no true indication of sporting abilities - as totally wrong.

Lexus was America's biggest luxury importer from something like 2000-2011.
Lately, Benz and Beamer have jumped in.
When Benz and Beamer are the biggest selling luxury importers, they are the biggest selling luxury importers. Period.

When Lexus is the biggest luxo importer, they should likewise be the biggest selling luxo importers, period - without the denigration as being mostly SUV's, or front drive cross-platform based cars, or cars with no real sporting abilities, when in fact, cars like the present GS have the best chassis in their class, where the 5 Series fails.

BMW M5 handling falls here, comparison after comparison, and even in Australia and India:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2014-...ck-comparison/

http://www.caradvice.com.au/199070/b...arison-review/

http://www.caradvice.com.au/268989/4...-benz-e63-amg/

.

peteharvey

Lexus has the most registrations for 2015, so let it be. Period.
Let's not put Lexus sales down with front wheel drive cross-platform sharing and SUV comments.
Who makes the best handling chassis now? Certainly not the BMW M5.
It's 2016 now, and BMW "used" to make some of the best handling chassis around. Past glories are gone, like you say.

You can justify BMW sales by quoting the number of their motorcycle and sedan sales.
Lexus would simply throw in the number of Toyota sales.

I'm not saying that one marque is better than the other marque at all.
I'm only saying that sales equates to total revenue, less expenses for company net profit calculations, and that sales does not necessarily equate to quality.
We will never be able to stop people from using sales to "imply" quality.

From an overall quality standpoint, all these manufacturers are pretty much equal; they are all great, but in different ways.
For example, one marque might be better at handling, while the other marque might be better at ride and refinement, but overall, they're pretty much all equal...
.

spwolf

$1750 is on the top of real invoice price, they cant get cars cheaper than that... you dealer has around 10% margin on luxury car pre-tax and pre-any deal. They dont make more money than that.

As to f-sport being ugly, of course thats subjective and obviously many people think it looks good since they are buying them like crazy.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

well gs and is sales were down 16 and 30% respectively last month so i would not say people are 'buying them like crazy' although we don't know how much is due to f-sport looks. and the '16 front refresh of the gs just made it look even worse imo. the white rx f-sport that's shown everywhere would look right in mad max, but it will keep selling on momentum alone. even on the ls, the f-sport front doesn't look classy to me it just looks like a bad nose job on an otherwise beautiful car.

as we all know, the new models, rc and nx, have kept the lexus sales flow going though, which is great, but i don't think it's due to f-sport styling, i think it's because they're capable, high quality and overall stylish vehicles.

mmarshall

Agreed. I've said that from the CT's Day One (should have been a Toyota......and took my share of flak for it.

It has, however, sold reasonably well under the Lexus badge. One cannot deny that.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

Ohh the CT, I do have a lot of clients buying/leasing them since it's the cheapest way to get a Lexus. I would say the CT counts as the most purchased Lexus among my clients for the last 3 months.

MattyG

From the Canadian website Driving:

http://driving.ca/mercedes-benz/c-cl...s-in-the-world

MattyG

The restyle does drive sales. People like identity vs blandness. But the critiques balance out a bunch of marketing or sales promo car sales hype.

This is Canuck curmudgeon Brian Harper, who loved the RX but also noted that the grill really didn't work for him.

http://driving.ca/lexus/rx-350/revie...rx-350-f-sport